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Felix_Nietzsche 11-17-2007 06:47 PM

Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
1. Mismanaged the Iraq occupation
a. Failed to impose martial law in Iraq with orders to shoot-to-kill looters. In the Arab culture there is a proverb that says, "Better 100 years of tyranny than 1 day of chaos". Failing to to crack down on looters was a major error. Rock throwers should have been shot on sight. And the Arabs would have respected the Americans for doing so. Not all but most. Don't believe me, look at Syria under Assad and what he did at Hama, Syria. There is a reason why a 5% minority in Syrian rules the country and has the vast majority of support in that country. Assad understands the Arab culture. Bush does not....
b. Appointed that idiot General Garner to manage post war Iraq. This guy made Opie Taylor look macho. There was ZERO chance this nitwit would gain the Arab's respect.
c. Failed to utilize the Kurds to help in post war Iraq.
d. Failed to install an temporary constitution to influence Iraq to a more secular constitution. In sales this is called the puppy dog close. You give your customer a puppy and hope they fall in love with it.
e. Failed to stop the Iranians from sending arms to insurgents. One good bombing would have sent a message to Tehran to behave themselves.
f. Failed to stop the Syrians from sending arms to insurgents. One good bombing would have sent a message to Damascus to behave themselves.
g. Being to responsive to allegations of abuse. Innocent marines were falsely charged with murder based on perjury from Iraqis. John Murtha jumped on the bandwagon and he is now being sued for his big mouth.
h. Failure to secure Iraqi ammo depots. These depots became the number #1 source of weapons used to kill American soldiers. There were plenty of Kurdish Pershmergas that could have been used to secure these sites. The Kurds would have helped themselves to some of these weapons but better the friendly kurds get these weapons than the insurgents.
i. Disbanding the Iraqi Armey. Bush should have kept the Iraqi army intact. By disbanding them, he put a lot of unemployed people on the streets. He should have gave them a chance to be an ally. If they betrayed his trust then he could have disbanded them. He pulled the trigger too quickly on this decision.
j. Failure to kill Sadr. This Shia leader has led several uprisings against American troops. American soldiers are dead because of him. This man needs to die. But Bush has chosen not to bring justice to him. In the first month of the occupation, the USA brought a pro western Iraqi Shia cleric. In his first week back in Iraq, this man was assassinated by Sadr's men. This led to an unsealed indictment against Sadr which Bush has chsen not to exercise. If the USA is not going to respond when it's allies are murdered, then does it stand to reason that not many people are going to stick their necks out and help in post war Iraq?
k. Failure to bring enough troops to Iraq.
The success of the surge could have reaped results much sooner if Bush had admitted this mistake. I don't blame Rumsfeld for this because I'm not sure how much leeway Rummy had in the Bush White House. Nor does anyone else on this forum....
l. Failure to get Turkey's cooperation to deploy the 4th ID i Turkey to attack iraq from the North. When it became clear that Turkey was stalling on this issue Bush could redeployed the 4th ID to Kuwait. Instead, the USA bagan this war with one division short. If Bush wanted to play hardball with the Turks, he could have threatened to play the 'Kurd' card to motivate them.

2. Big Spender Bush/Relations with Dems
Traditionally congress tends to spend to much to buy votes back at home with pork. Traditionally the president uses his veto pen to keep spending in check. Bush's veto pen has dust on it. I don't think he exercised ONE veto during his first term.
a. The 1st term farm bill. Welfare for rich farmers. I think Bush thought he could buy Tom Daschle's loyalty with signing this budget buster.
b. The education bill. Complete crap. The federal govt botches education. Better to give control to local schools. Bush let that nitwit Ted Kennedy write that bill thinking Ted Kennedy would become his buddy.....big mistake.
c. Bush's prescription drug plan. No one wanted this yet he got this boondoggle passed. This will haunt the American budget for years.
d. And many more pork barrel projects and his failure to veto this spending. Again, even though congress controls the purse strings, the white house guards the vault door.
e. Encouraging Senate Leader Trent Lott to share power in the US senate with Dems instead of utilizing the winner take all tradition in the seante. This was a failed attempt to buy the Dems good will. Sen Jim Jeffords defected from the Repub party and Tom Dascle usurped Trent Lott. And how did the Dem leaders repay the repubs with their misplace bipartisanship? They screwed them.....

3. Campaign Finance Reform (McCain-Feingold)
Bush signed this unconstitutional bill. This bill is the greatest assault on free speech that I have seen in my lifetime. This bill should be called the 'Incumbent Protection Act". 30 days before a primary, people are denied the right of free speech on TV/radio to criticize a candidate. 60 days before an general election, people are denied the right of free speech on TV/radio to criticize a candidate. I am stunned the supreme court did not overturn this. If people can not use TV/Radio to get their messages out in an election then then the incumbents get an even bigger advantage... If the govt can restrict free speech on TV/radio for 60 days then why can't they restrict free speech 120 days from an lection?... or even 180 days... or perhaps 365 days before an election. Denying people the right to get their messages out via TV/Radio is like trying to dig a hole for a swimming pool using a spoon... In the old days, a pol could get a few millionaires to finance their campaign to get elected. These days you need to have a VAST-COMPLEX-NETWORK to gather lots of single $1000 donations. The result is this LIMITS the number of people that can run for office. The main reason why Bush43 won the primaries was he inherited the donation machine from his father. With campaign financing you pick you poison. if you place limits on donations, you restrict the number of available people who can run for office. If you allow no holds bar donations, then you risk more influence peddling. I would rather have ZERO restrictions other than foreigners are barred and that contributors names must be published. If a pol sells-out the voters to a big contributor, then any half-assed journalist can expose this pol and his donor and the voters can vote him out. We would get a lot more choices and the 2nd tier candidates could go mainstream if they could find a few sugar daddies to bankroll them... If ron Paul had enough financial banking, even he could make it to the top four. But because of campaign laws, he is restricted to how high hew can rise...

4. Immigration Reform.
Bush tried to push this piece-of-crap down the American people's throat. Talk radio rallied millions of people to 'surge' the phone lines on the Senate.
a. Bush had US attorney's prosecute two border agents based on the testimony of a drug smuggler. The drug smuggler testified he was destitute and he did not know his cargo was drugs. He further testified he was not a drug smuggler and would NEVER knowingly smuggle drugs. Well federal officials have acknowledged this man committed perjury on the stand. This drug smuggler was caught again smuggling drugs and he has been indicted. He faces 40 years in prison should he be convicted of these charges. Meanwhile. two agents that should have been commended from stopping a drug shipment (unless it was weed because I like weed [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]), are to spend the next 10 years in jail.

4. The Terry Schiavo Issue
I believe in state's rights. The federal govt had know right to intervene in this issue. Senator Frist claimed based on his medical expertise that this woman was responding to stimuli and therefore should not be euthanized. The autopsy showed this woman's brain has shriveled to nothing. But regardless, Bush should have butted out of this issue.

5. The Harriet Meyers nomination to the supreme court.
Jeez....this was a pathetic choice. Alito and Roberts have been good appointments so far.

6. The handling of the Scooter Libby case.
No repub will EVER get a fair try in Washington DC. This area is 80%+ rabid democrats. In a standard criminal trial, a defendent can request a change in venue so as to get an unbiased jury. In this case, the defense ran out of strikes and had rabid dems on the juror that included a person from moveon.org. My stance was once Armitage was identified as the leaker, Fitzfong should have indicted Armitage or have closed the investigation.... Allowing the fishing investigation in the White House was complete bullcrap.

7. Bush's praising of Islam.
I'm an atheist so I see most religions as being silly superstition. But to praise one of the most vile and sickest religions on the planet makes me want to puke. You have a serial murderer and a serial pedophile names Ubu'l Kassim that kills and murders his way to power and supposedly this guy is God's messenger? If there is a god would he use a pedophile to spread his message? Later this pedophile was 'honored' with the title of "The Praised One" which we hear today as the name Mohammed....

As much as I'm sick of Bush and as much as I'm counting down the days of his presidency, he is better than any candidate the Dems have. Although I think Bill Clinton with a Repub congress is VASTLY better than Bush43 with either a Repub/Dem congress. Bush43 has been good in stopping socialize medicine. All this bullcrap about Bush being selected and not elected makes my eyes roll. There were NOT enough 'hanging chads' to give algore Florida. It is that simple.... There is a part of me that wished algore got elected so that they could see what a complete idiot he is (as oppose to a partial idiot in Bush). I lived through the Jimmy carter presidency and this man was such a COMPLETE INCOMPETANT that the American people could hardly wait to vote him out of office. Jimmy Carter is the reason why America took a hard right turn and elected Reagan. If algore got elected, America would have taken anther hard right turn and perhaps we could have gotten a real conservative as oppose to Bush43.

I do think Bush is a VERY nice man with good intentions as oppose to many leading Dem leaders. If I saw John Kerry or Algore on fire, I would NOT stop to pee on them to put the fire out. But I would pee on Bush and perhaps....also take a dump on him.....

foal 11-17-2007 07:02 PM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
[ QUOTE ]
But I would pee on Bush and perhaps....also take a dump on him.....

[/ QUOTE ]
O_O

Max Raker 11-17-2007 08:44 PM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
Not sure why you think Gore is incompetent other then the fact that you disagree with his politics. Also if he won the election he would have been burned at the stake by conservatives for 9/11.

VarlosZ 11-17-2007 10:06 PM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
[ QUOTE ]
a. Failed to impose martial law in Iraq with orders to shoot-to-kill looters. In the Arab culture there is a proverb that says, "Better 100 years of tyranny than 1 day of chaos". Failing to to crack down on looters was a major error. Rock throwers should have been shot on sight. And the Arabs would have respected the Americans for doing so. Not all but most. Don't believe me, look at Syria under Assad and what he did at Hama, Syria. There is a reason why a 5% minority in Syrian rules the country and has the vast majority of support in that country. Assad understands the Arab culture. Bush does not....

e. Failed to stop the Iranians from sending arms to insurgents. One good bombing would have sent a message to Tehran to behave themselves.
. . .
f. Failed to stop the Syrians from sending arms to insurgents. One good bombing would have sent a message to Damascus to behave themselves.


[/ QUOTE ]

Where does this conception of human nature come from? Since the inception of nationalism, when has it ever been the case that you can bomb/shoot members of a foreign culture and they would respond by rolling over and staying submissive?

[ QUOTE ]
g. Being to responsive to allegations of abuse. Innocent marines were falsely charged with murder based on perjury from Iraqis.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably. How many U.S. serviceman have committed crimes and been exonerated because of perjury from their comrades, or because everyone just looked the other way (and thus had no need to lie overtly)? Which number do you think is greater? I honestly don't know, but if given even odds, I know where my money would be.

But that doesn't really matter. The problem with your point is this: if you want the Iraqis to respect the rule of law in general, and the authority of their government and our occupation in particular, you have to make sure they are part of the process. You can't just reject their accusations and testimony out of hand because they're Arabs and might have a motive to lie.

ALawPoker 11-17-2007 11:15 PM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
And he always spoke so highly of you, Felix. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

AlexM 11-17-2007 11:18 PM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But I would pee on Bush and perhaps....also take a dump on him.....

[/ QUOTE ]
O_O

[/ QUOTE ]

He meant that other bodily fluid that males produce.

adios 11-17-2007 11:18 PM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
At least he championed tax cuts. I agree with your points though.

whiskeytown 11-17-2007 11:19 PM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
[ QUOTE ]
Not sure why you think Gore is incompetent other then the fact that you disagree with his politics. Also if he won the election he would have been burned at the stake by conservatives for 9/11.

[/ QUOTE ]

9/11 could have been prevented by an administration that didn't have it's head halfway up it's ass already planning for the Iraqi invasion. The reports were there, the anti-terrorism experts were there - they were just ignored and dismissed.

if Al Gore were prez. I doubt 9/11 would have slipped thru the cracks of shoddy leadership.

RB

andyfox 11-18-2007 12:44 AM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
I didn't want to read through your long post, but there's certainly gold at the end:

"If I saw John Kerry or Algore on fire, I would NOT stop to pee on them to put the fire out. But I would pee on Bush and perhaps....also take a dump on him....."

Bravo.

AlexM 11-18-2007 12:59 AM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
[ QUOTE ]
At least he championed tax cuts. I agree with your points though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Too bad tax cuts are a sham issue. It's spending that matters.

NewTeaBag 11-18-2007 01:58 AM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
g. Being to responsive to allegations of abuse. Innocent marines were falsely charged with murder based on perjury from Iraqis.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably. How many U.S. serviceman have committed crimes and been exonerated because of perjury from their comrades, or because everyone just looked the other way (and thus had no need to lie overtly)? Which number do you think is greater? I honestly don't know, but if given even odds, I know where my money would be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spoken like someone who has never seen any combat (outside of a "little on TV").

Keep on giving out speeding tickets at The INDY 500. Also keep assuming the worst of highly trained American Service personell whilst assuming the best of radical, suicidal, direct civilian targeting, douchebags.

DcifrThs 11-18-2007 02:30 AM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
i LOOOOOVVVEEE president bush!!

are you kidding me?

how much personal enjoyment have you gotten out of his continual idiocy on the television?

how much have you enjoyed jon stuard/colbert etc. (esp. frank caliendo) making fun of the man?

what has that literally cost you in your day to day life?

Barron

VarlosZ 11-18-2007 02:35 AM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
g. Being to responsive to allegations of abuse. Innocent marines were falsely charged with murder based on perjury from Iraqis.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably. How many U.S. serviceman have committed crimes and been exonerated because of perjury from their comrades, or because everyone just looked the other way (and thus had no need to lie overtly)? Which number do you think is greater? I honestly don't know, but if given even odds, I know where my money would be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spoken like someone who has never seen any combat (outside of a "little on TV").

Keep on giving out speeding tickets at The INDY 500. Also keep assuming the worst of highly trained American Service personell whilst assuming the best of radical, suicidal, direct civilian targeting, douchebags.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've overreacted to what I actually said. And I'm not assuming the worst (or the best) about anybody. The only assumption I'm making is that soldiers will be tend to be very loyal to each other, sometimes (from an outsider's perspective) even loyal to a fault.

My point was not that soldiers are scum, nor was it that accusatory Iraqis are unusually honest. My point was that I suspect the OP is influenced by American exceptionalism; e.g., being more upset by the bad deeds of Iraqi civilians than the comparable bad deeds of U.S. soldiers.

(Incidentally, "speeding tickets at the Indy 500"? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think you're necessarily supposed to agree with Captain Willard's point of view -- crimes by soldiers in a war zone should still be crimes, for the most part.)

AlexM 11-18-2007 02:46 AM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
[ QUOTE ]

what has that literally cost you in your day to day life?


[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... how to measure how much money I've lost since losing Party Poker...

vulturesrow 11-18-2007 03:04 AM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not sure why you think Gore is incompetent other then the fact that you disagree with his politics. Also if he won the election he would have been burned at the stake by conservatives for 9/11.

[/ QUOTE ]

9/11 could have been prevented by an administration that didn't have it's head halfway up it's ass already planning for the Iraqi invasion. The reports were there, the anti-terrorism experts were there - they were just ignored and dismissed.

if Al Gore were prez. I doubt 9/11 would have slipped thru the cracks of shoddy leadership.

RB

[/ QUOTE ]

Always good for a laugh, you are.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ool-AidMan.jpg

Felix_Nietzsche 11-18-2007 08:13 AM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
[ QUOTE ]
Where does this conception of human nature come from?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because it works...
It takes a correctly pessamistic view on human nature and you apply a correct and violent response towards those that commit transgressions against you. Such thinking led to Pax Romana....the Roman Peace. When Rome strayed from these principles, Alaric and the Goths betrayed Rome and sacked her. Which was the stake in the heart that mortally wounded the Roman Empire. Machiavelli wrote as much in his book "The Prince". Reagan pacified the Iranians after he sank half their fleet in one day. Properly applied gunboat diplomacy works while appeasement and the ignoring of transgressions leads to more violence.... If I had more time I would pull a quote from an ancient Roman statesman that said the same thing. And if you have read any history, the Romans had a pretty good run... The USA does not come even close to filling the jock-strap of the Roman Empire.... Or the Britsh Empire...

[ QUOTE ]
Since the inception of nationalism, when has it ever been the case that you can bomb/shoot members of a foreign culture and they would respond by rolling over and staying submissive?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes...many times throughour history.
Besides the Roman Empire, the British applied the concept of the steel fist inside the velvet glove. quite well which resulted in the empire where the sun never sets. This is seeing human nature as it really is. Not some utopian nonsense written on a poker forum...

As for the rock throwing Iraqis, you shoot a few rock throwers and they stop. This actually happened at a prison in Iraq. The prisoners learned the American guards were not allowed to use deadly force if they threw rocks at the American guards. So they threw rocks. The warden changed the policy where the guards could shoot to kill. The prisoners stopped throwing rocks. A respected threat of violence, causes violence to decrease. Gee.....funny how this keeps working. You are like the poker player that says you a winning player but you have been on a bad variance for the last 5 years. Could it be that you are ignoring the mathematical laws of poker??? Hmmmmmm.....

Just as you ignore the laws of human nature...

Felix_Nietzsche 11-18-2007 08:17 AM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
I was thinking the exact same thing as you....
But I didn't think whiskey's post was worth a response. When I think of govt, I think of inefficiency and incompetancy. Algore would not have prevented 911.... it s not even close. Govt is usually a day late and a dollar short. It took a 911 to wake the federal govt up to prevent another 911.

Richard Clarke's reinvention of himself of Appollo's Cassandra is also extremely grating to me as well....

2/325Falcon 11-18-2007 12:34 PM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
[ QUOTE ]
h. Failure to secure Iraqi ammo depots.

[/ QUOTE ]

People don't seem to understand that Iraq was littered with munitions and I mean this with no hyperbole. In As Samawah you would find 60mm mortar shells cached every 100m north of the Euphrates and we pulled truckload after truckload out of the soccer stadium. In Diwaniyah, we pulled out more truckloads of ammo. In Baghdad, Iraqis told me about Iraqi soldiers driving around before the war kicking AK-47s off the back of a truck saying "Fight the Americans!" There was no way to collect all of this crap.

VarlosZ 11-18-2007 12:57 PM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
Felix, you gave exactly one example that fit my criteria ("since the exception of nationalism. . ."), and it was a bad one. Iran couldn't do anything in retaliation -- they were already fighting a war and were horribly outclassed militarily -- except, say, give support to terrorists and develop nuclear weapons so it won't happen again.

Stop and think for a moment about what's on the other side of the ledger. Did Pearl Harbor shock us into letting Japan have free reign in the Pacific, or did it ensure that we'd settle for nothing short of unconditional surrender? After 9/11 did we consider even for a split second pulling out of Muslim countries and abandoning Israel as an ally, or did we conquer two Islamic countries -- whose occupations have no end in sight -- in operations which have probably resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Muslims? And how is Israel doing with it's decades-long conflict? Am I correct in my assumption that you think that they'd be safer of they killed a lot more Muslims?

There are countless more examples. You may (or may not) be able to find one or two valid counter-examples but, the vast majority of the time, "teaching them a [violent] lesson" mostly teaches them that it's time to make more bullets.

[ QUOTE ]
As for the rock throwing Iraqis, you shoot a few rock throwers and they stop. This actually happened at a prison in Iraq. The prisoners learned the American guards were not allowed to use deadly force if they threw rocks at the American guards. So they threw rocks. The warden changed the policy where the guards could shoot to kill. The prisoners stopped throwing rocks. A respected threat of violence, causes violence to decrease.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all (assuming your story is accurate), that's a prison, which is entirely different in this regard from pretty much anyplace else. Second, it may well be that shooting rock-throwers causes rock-throwing to decrease. OTOH, it will probably lead to more severe and longer-lasting violence of other sorts, ultimately.

qwnu 11-18-2007 03:46 PM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
Congress's low approval ratings are fairly well-understood. Everybody hates them, but for different reasons. Republicans hate them because the Democrats are in power. Democrats hate them because the Democratic leadership has failed to end the war and implement any substantive policy change after a full year of being in power, and have further caved in to administration demands at every possible opportunity.

Similarly, the administration's low approval ratings are apparently driven by two separate forces. Normal reasonable people are horrified by the prospect of endless wars of aggression, torture, secret prisons, lawless indefinite detention, illegal warrantless wiretapping, politicization of various departments and agencies, corruption, deficit spending, etc., etc.

But there seems to be a growing population of right-wingers (I hesitate to call them "conservatives"), as evidenced by Felix's rant, who are angry with the administration because they are insufficiently bloodthirsty and intolerant.

In other words, in the latest right track/wrong track poll, both Felix and I might be in the "wrong track" camp, but obviously for radically different reasons. Strange bedfellows, indeed.

pvn 11-18-2007 06:43 PM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
[ QUOTE ]
i LOOOOOVVVEEE president bush!!

are you kidding me?

how much personal enjoyment have you gotten out of his continual idiocy on the television?

how much have you enjoyed jon stuard/colbert etc. (esp. frank caliendo) making fun of the man?

what has that literally cost you in your day to day life?

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

How much does removing $2T from the economy, shipping it over seas, and blowing it up cost me in my day to day life?

Hmm.

Oh, and don't forget about all those kids that got killed. How much did it cost them?

I'm glad to hear you've been enetertained.

VarlosZ 11-18-2007 08:47 PM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
Crap, just noticed the glaring typo in the first line of my last post. That should be: "'since the inception of nationalism.'" Brain fart, sorry.

GtrHtr 11-18-2007 08:59 PM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
h. Failure to secure Iraqi ammo depots.

[/ QUOTE ]

People don't seem to understand that Iraq was littered with munitions and I mean this with no hyperbole. In As Samawah you would find 60mm mortar shells cached every 100m north of the Euphrates and we pulled truckload after truckload out of the soccer stadium. In Diwaniyah, we pulled out more truckloads of ammo. In Baghdad, Iraqis told me about Iraqi soldiers driving around before the war kicking AK-47s off the back of a truck saying "Fight the Americans!" There was no way to collect all of this crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true.

Also about 40-50% of the Iraq part of the rant is incorrect but whatever I like the other 50-60% of it. Quick example is the often spoken "mistake" of us disbanding the Iraqi army. They left on their own and there was no option to keep them intact.

NasEscobar 11-18-2007 09:07 PM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
[ QUOTE ]
It takes a correctly pessamistic view on human nature and you apply a correct and violent response towards those that commit transgressions against you.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah all those one million Iraqi civilians who have died from this war all had it coming.

Kaj 11-18-2007 09:36 PM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
[ QUOTE ]
Quick example is the often spoken "mistake" of us disbanding the Iraqi army. They left on their own and there was no option to keep them intact.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you seen "No End in Sight"? The senior military and civil leaders in Iraq at the time would vehemently disagree with you. They had been coordinating with senior Iraqi leaders who had accounted for their former troops and were waiting for the word to recall them. The decision to disband the army permanently was made completely by administration men who never stepped foot in Iraq and behind the back of these military and civilian leaders in Iraq who actually learned of it on the news and were outraged at the stupidity of such a move. The resulting insurgency was by no means unxpected by such men and it has played out true to form.

"It was absolutely the wrong decision," said Col. Paul Hughes of the Army, who served as an aide to Jay Garner, a retired three-star general and the first civilian administrator of Iraq. "We changed from being a liberator to an occupier with that single decision,'' he said. "By abolishing the army, we destroyed in the Iraqi mind the last symbol of sovereignty they could recognize and as a result created a significant part of the resistance."

Case Closed 11-18-2007 09:50 PM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
[ QUOTE ]
i LOOOOOVVVEEE president bush!!

are you kidding me?

how much personal enjoyment have you gotten out of his continual idiocy on the television?

how much have you enjoyed jon stuard/colbert etc. (esp. frank caliendo) making fun of the man?

what has that literally cost you in your day to day life?

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]
Level?

Case Closed 11-18-2007 10:01 PM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
[ QUOTE ]
All this bullcrap about Bush being selected and not elected makes my eyes roll. There were NOT enough 'hanging chads' to give algore Florida.

[/ QUOTE ]
While I do enjoy a good ol' fashion anti-Bush rant I do take acception to this sentence. If you ask anyone who is serious about the 2000 election being handed to Bush in florida I highly doubt any of their reasons they list will be about the hanging chad. If they do it will be somewhere near the bottom. One of the main problems with the Florida election was the mass disenfranchisement of black voters. Those voters would have swung the election, but they were silenced and the re-counts were tarnished.

I doubt anyone wants to re-hash this old topic. If you don't believe the problems of the 2000 election that is one thing. But I just want to make sure you're aware of the real reasons people are up in arms about that whole debacle.

4 High 11-18-2007 10:41 PM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
I remember reading somewhere, had a full statewide recount been done properly in regards to correctly counting chads and overvotes/undervotes Gore would have won by a decent margin. Obviously hindsight is 20/20 but why did the Gore Team request such a limited recount?

DcifrThs 11-18-2007 11:11 PM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i LOOOOOVVVEEE president bush!!

are you kidding me?

how much personal enjoyment have you gotten out of his continual idiocy on the television?

how much have you enjoyed jon stuard/colbert etc. (esp. frank caliendo) making fun of the man?

what has that literally cost you in your day to day life?

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]
Level?

[/ QUOTE ]

shhhhhh.

you'll make pvn's head asplode

Barron

2/325Falcon 11-18-2007 11:17 PM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
Kaj,

I haven't seen No End In Sight yet, but how many of the Iraqi Army deserters do you think would have come back if recalled?

inside?? 11-18-2007 11:34 PM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
Hello?? What about stem cell research? I can't believe anyone would actually be against this.

Kaj 11-18-2007 11:41 PM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
According to Col Hughes, Jay Garner's top liaison with senior Iraqi military leaders, they could have gotten over 100,000 almost immediately. It would hardly be difficult -- Iraqi soldiers needed paychecks, do you think they wanted to be thrown to the streets with no job and no prospects after being part of a respected military? How do you think a half million American soldiers would feel if an occupying force moved in to America, supposedly to liberate them, and then barred them from serving in a security capacity, the only thing they are really trained to do. And then these soldiers watch security breakdown all around them and their beloved country turn into a violent shithole while the occupiers stand by and let it happen. They'd probably get the idea that the occupiers weren't here to liberate and rebuild but to conquer and control. Hughes hit the nail on the head. The way we treated the Iraqi military sent a very clear message -- we are in charge now, it's our country to secure, not yours anymore. And then when security broke down, we made our intentions clear to the rest of the nation by securing only one piece of infrastructure: the oil ministry and oil fields, even while our soldiers stood idly by requesting to secure important Iraqi cultural buildings but were ordered to do nothing.

Please watch the movie. It is not a propaganda job but is basically those on the ground and in charge of the initial reconstruction telling with their own words how politics and administration appointees bungled this whole thing. Arrogance and incompetence with a healthy dose of corruption.

owsley 11-19-2007 12:15 AM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
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[ QUOTE ]
All this bullcrap about Bush being selected and not elected makes my eyes roll. There were NOT enough 'hanging chads' to give algore Florida.

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While I do enjoy a good ol' fashion anti-Bush rant I do take acception to this sentence. If you ask anyone who is serious about the 2000 election being handed to Bush in florida I highly doubt any of their reasons they list will be about the hanging chad. If they do it will be somewhere near the bottom. One of the main problems with the Florida election was the mass disenfranchisement of black voters. Those voters would have swung the election, but they were silenced and the re-counts were tarnished.

I doubt anyone wants to re-hash this old topic. If you don't believe the problems of the 2000 election that is one thing. But I just want to make sure you're aware of the real reasons people are up in arms about that whole debacle.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to mention the one Jewish suburb where Pat Buchanan got like 5,000 votes or something.

The whole thing was completely FUBAR in the truest sense of the phrase.

vulturesrow 11-19-2007 01:17 AM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All this bullcrap about Bush being selected and not elected makes my eyes roll. There were NOT enough 'hanging chads' to give algore Florida.

[/ QUOTE ]
While I do enjoy a good ol' fashion anti-Bush rant I do take acception to this sentence. If you ask anyone who is serious about the 2000 election being handed to Bush in florida I highly doubt any of their reasons they list will be about the hanging chad. If they do it will be somewhere near the bottom. One of the main problems with the Florida election was the mass disenfranchisement of black voters. Those voters would have swung the election, but they were silenced and the re-counts were tarnished.

I doubt anyone wants to re-hash this old topic. If you don't believe the problems of the 2000 election that is one thing. But I just want to make sure you're aware of the real reasons people are up in arms about that whole debacle.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the love of God, iron please lock this thread before we go down this road for the umpteenth million time...

AlexM 11-19-2007 01:26 AM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
[ QUOTE ]
Hello?? What about stem cell research? I can't believe anyone would actually be against this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who's against it? I know of no one that wants to make stem cell research illegal.

JOHNY CA$H 11-19-2007 02:24 AM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
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I do think Bush is a VERY nice man with good intentions

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lol. Ignorance must be bliss.

mrick 11-19-2007 04:39 AM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
[ QUOTE ]
Mismanaged the Iraq occupation

[/ QUOTE ] Well, well, well! Isn't it funny and sad at the same time, how the conservatives and neo-conservatives who supported the invasion of Iraq now turn on their man? George W Bush delivered the invasion these folks were so gung-ho about and now that the inevitable mess is clear for all to see and can't be hidden under lies and misdirection, they whine "it's all Dubya's fault!"...

Well, I have news for you, Felix. That was a solid thumb-sucker of a post -- but the Prince of Darkness beat you to it, months ago...
Neocons turn on Bush for incompetence over Iraq war
Former hawks now say they wouldn't back Iraq war
Neo Culpa

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Failed to impose martial law in Iraq with orders to shoot-to-kill looters. Appointed that idiot General Garner to manage post war Iraq. Disbanding the Iraqi Army.

[/ QUOTE ]The looting took place because of the American invasion and how it was carried out. Shooting the looters would have stopped the looting of essentials and alienated even earlier the population. Yes : Disbanding the Army and the state institutions have been the root cause for the anarchy still prevailing in Iraq. That and ten years of stupid sanctions were enough to severely undermine the Iraqi state infrastructure -- as intelligence forwarned thw White House.

But, on this very forum, there were jubilant posters who were adamant that Iraq should be "purged" from all the "Ba'ath fascists". Hey, payback is a bitch...

[ QUOTE ]
Failed to install a temporary constitution to influence Iraq to a more secular constitution. In sales this is called the puppy dog close. You give your customer a puppy and hope they fall in love with it.

[/ QUOTE ] In this context, it is called poppycock. Iraq was without any serious secular political body that would, possibly, support a secular constitution. Why? Because the American invasion had marginalised and destroyed the secular Ba'ath regime... My dear Felix, you CAN'T sell a puppy dog to dog haters. And you CAN'T sell a secular constitution to a Supreme Islamic Revolutionary Council. I thought the name would've been warning enough... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Failed to stop the Iranians ...[and] the Syrians ... from sending arms to insurgents. Failure to secure Iraqi ammo depots.

[/ QUOTE ]I have more news for you, Felix. The biggest source of weapons for the insurgents seems to be (and I hope you don't have heart problems) the American ammunition given to the Iraqi state! Yes sir, this is what happens when you are a fool and an idiot and you don't know your friends from your enemies -- the people who serve your interests, aside from all rhetoric, and the people who oppose your interests, aside from all rhetoric. Isn't is amazing how much better the Saddam Hussein regime (and a crapload of billions of dollars LESS spent!) seems in retrospect??.. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Like the proverbial fool, the American zealots in charge of the war placed their faith --and the fate of Iraq-- in the hands of known crooks, such as Ahmed Chalabi, of religious fanatics such as the ..Shia militants whom they put in charge of ..internal security (well, they were opponents of Saddam, weren't they?? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]), and of incompetents such as ..well pretty much everybody involved in this mess from Rummie on down to the brass -- leave the soldiers out.

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Failure to get Turkey's cooperation to deploy the 4th ID in Turkey to attack iraq from the North. Being too responsive to allegations of abuse.

[/ QUOTE ] Even if Bush has been too harsh with the poor war criminals, what's that got to dom with mismanaging the war? I have news for you, Felix : The war has been won! It's the peace that's at stake now -- and winning the peace means showing to the Iraqis that you are serious about installing a regime which is secular and fair. A regime which, for example, punishes abuse. Lead by example, WTF.

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Failure to kill Sadr.

[/ QUOTE ] LOL.

You don't get it, do you? THERE'S NOBODY ELSE TO GET SUPPORT FROM EXCEPT THE SHIAS. And the Shias would be instantly alienated if Sadr was killed.

But I have one piece of good news for you, Felix: The only true sign of hope in Iraq right now is that former insurgents, i.e. persons who have recently tortured, maimed and killed Americans (as well as Iraqis), are willing to talk with the American side! This is excellent news. Sheikhs ruling over Sunni militias are discussing with American commanders ways to keep the al Qaeda "nihilists" (as they call 'em) out of their areas. Or, better yet, snuff 'em out.

Have faith, Felix. One Ace is still in the deck. If you had been tracking the cards sharply enough, you'd know it too.

[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

MidGe 11-19-2007 04:46 AM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
mrick,

well, as has been said many times before it all started with lies about why to start the war in Iraq. WMD, 9/11, etc., orly! Therein lies the rub.

Felix_Nietzsche 11-21-2007 12:38 PM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
[ QUOTE ]
Shooting the looters would have stopped the looting of essentials and alienated even earlier the population.

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't know what you are talking about...
The Arab culture and Arab history show that ruling with an iron fist works. And works quite well. Syria's 5% minority controls the other 95% of their population. But feel free to provide historical examples where shooting looters is not effective. In any culture....

[ QUOTE ]
have more news for you, Felix. The biggest source of weapons for the insurgents seems to be the American ammunition given to the Iraqi state!

[/ QUOTE ]
<Sigh> I doubt you even know which end of a barrel the bullet leaves a gun. The Iraqi army uses Warsaw Pact ammunition, not NATO ammunition. The USA does NOT manufacture Warsaw pact ammo. Iraqi oil bought these weapons from their manufactorers (Warsaw Pact countries) During the war with Iran, it was the Saudis, Kuwaitis, and other Persian Gulf nations that 'loaned' massive amounts of money to allow Saddam to buy additional weapons....from the Soviets. During this war it was the USA provided intelligence and relaxed embargo restrictions against Iraq....which was the correct play to do against a possible Iranian takeover of Iraq.

[ QUOTE ]
You don't get it, do you? THERE'S NOBODY ELSE TO GET SUPPORT FROM EXCEPT THE SHIAS. And the Shias would be instantly alienated if Sadr was killed.

[/ QUOTE ]
You assume that most Shias support Sadr...
Again you demstrate your ignorance. I would be surprised if Sadr had 10% support from the Shia population. But 10% armed with guns and a willingness to murder is enough to cow the other 90%.

Your post is a text book example that rabid Bush haters are incapable of criticizing Bush is a logical and reasoned manner. It takes a conservative Repub to show you how it is done...

slickss 11-21-2007 01:09 PM

Re: Why I Despise Bush\'s Presidency.....Rant...
 
[ QUOTE ]
But feel free to provide historical examples where shooting looters is not effective. In any culture....

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll give you a piece of the non-American culture: Situations that force you to help and kill the same people are sticky, and should be avoided at all costs.

Team America, [censored] yeah.


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