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-   -   why does this forum care so much about religion (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=521521)

vhawk01 10-14-2007 07:51 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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The point Sam Harris made in a speech the other day about the branding of "atheist" being no good is relevant to this argument. What luckyme and I want is the universal application of skepticism and reason, not atheism. There is no society or regime in history that has ever gone bad as a result of being too reasonable or too skeptical.

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If you're truly the reasonable man you suggest you are, then you should make the effort to do a fair analysis of the successes scored by Christian countries VS non-Christian countries VS atheist countries during the past 100 years. If you do, it's game, set, match on most any metric.

But you won't.

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As far as I know, there aren't any countries which enshrine Christianity as the national religion (I might be wrong about that, but anyway there aren't any major examples).

If you just mean nations with a high percentage of devoted Christians, I think you might lose. Check out this list of countries ranked by church attendance; there are a few successful countries in the top 20 or so (Ireland, the US, Belgium, Canada, The Netherlands... if you really want to claim The Netherlands as a "Christian country"), but if you remove the ex-Communist countries from the bottom 30 or so, it's a who's who of successful countries. This suggests - shockingly enough - that it's Communism which wrecks your country, and that Christianity at best is irrelevant.

By the way, why are we restricting things to the last 100 years? Christianity shouldn't have changed in the last 2,000 years, being an eternal truth, so if Christianity is such a great foundation for a nation, shouldn't I be able to look at any period in history and find Christian nations to be virutous? But this isn't the case. Why, if I were a cynical man, I might be inclined to think this showed that (a) Christianity has nothing to do with the success of nations or that (b) Christian nations only became successful after Christianity was ameliorated a little by the use of reason and skepticism.

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Nice deflection. This wasn't about the Catholic church. You need to find some Christian philosophy in Hitler's acts. You won't. Buh bye.

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We'll get started on that just as soon as you detail how it was people demanding too much factual evidence to back up claims who were the driving force behind the Stalin and Pol Pot regimes.

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THere are certainly definitional issues. But overall, the great ecomonic powers of today have serious Christian roots, perhaps with fading church attendance, but solid roots. Then look at personal freedom and rights for women. Christian rooted countries are far and away in the lead here. Islam is a female's nightmare, only slightly better if male. North Korea will be found at the bottom of every metric and I doubt there's much sanctioned religion.

You can parse it and spin it as your agenda warrants, but the easiest living is found under the shade tree of Christianity. Why do atheists loathe this fact so very much?

Lastly, Europe's shining star, the new and perhaps only future hope, Ireland, still atttends Christian church in huge numbers. There's reproducing as well, unlike the rest of Europe where societal slow suicide is the norm.

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Is this correlation stronger or weaker when comparing white vs. non-white countries? Just wondering, you seem to be making some HUGe correlation/causation errors, just wondering what the boundaries were.

luckyme 10-14-2007 08:10 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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You can parse it and spin it as your agenda warrants, but the easiest living is found under the shade tree of Christianity. Why do atheists loathe this fact so very much?


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The status quo that our current position was taken from was a theist society. BUT it was ripped from the hands of theists by secular views. Theist positions only changed after the current of secular forces were pushing.
Think - slavery.
Think - women's rights
Think - democracy

Religion is a conserving force in our society ( which can have some steadying value) and at the times/places where it is the major power player things do not get changed for the better ... what would be the impetus? That they were doing it wrong, following their infallible word of god. Not going to happen.

luckmye

Hopey 10-14-2007 09:02 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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But overall, the great ecomonic powers of today have serious Christian roots, perhaps with fading church attendance, but solid roots.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Mongols controlled the world's largest empire and were basically atheistic.

The Chinese will are becoming an economic superpower, and are basically atheistic.

Japan is not a Christian nation and have been extremely successful economically by any measure.

The Muslims successfully defended the Middle East from the Crusaders for hundreds of years, and had some of the most advanced cities in the world.

Correlation is not causation.

tame_deuces 10-14-2007 09:12 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

And you forgot to mention that we probably owe more to greece and the roman empire than christianity as far as that prosperity thing goes.

RustedCorpse 10-14-2007 09:49 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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You can parse it and spin it as your agenda warrants, but the easiest living is found under the shade tree of Christianity.

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I think there might be some witches and inquisition victims who would disagree. But maybe trying to stay alive is an agenda?




To OP:

Some Christians listen.

A lot of religious people just plod through half heartily accepting what they've been taught. Forcing them to confront fallacies and logic, over and over, time and time again, DOES wear them down.

It did me.

WiiiiiiMan 10-15-2007 02:49 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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I debate religion sometimes and my main motive is usually to be mean. I cannot think of another subject where I can pawn someone to a ridiculous extent as much as religion. Its like arguing with a child who thinks Santa Clause exists. People who believe in Christianity aren't going to change their mind when you present logic reasoning. If they were interested in logical reasoning, they wouldn't be Christians. If person makes it past the age of eight-teen and there aren't already huge doubts in their mind of Jesus's existence, there is nothing you can do.

So shouldn't we find something more interesting to discuss regardless of the ego boost it gives us to rip the zealots?

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Debating people who are not scientifically inclined when your just spitting out scientific terms or saying this proves this, etc is pretty much cowardice.

Try to debate someone who can scientifically backup his faith in scriptures is a whole different things.

Well you wouldn't do it. And yes, as you said, no matter how much truth you hear, your not going to change your mind.

Your no different then anybody that runs from truths and facts.

Obviously we can't understand things though that require no limit to space and time, and obviously we are bound by both.

I am sure their are lots of leaps of faith you take that you think are facts.

Whole point is to be logical and rational enough to see how science upholds writings in some scriptures, but only after these were written basically confirming what has been written or translated.


Then again, regardless of the truth of these things and how they are clearly stated, you most likely won't change your current mind on how you see things, only enhancing that position. It's only human though, your bound by the same laws as me in our capacity to fully understand the mysteries of the universe. But the things we can understand, if you seek for the truths with an open mind you got a better shot of seeing the brilliant light that started this whole universe.

KEYWORD- Open Mind.

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It's a good thing that you don't put yourself in a conversation with people who have logical reasoning for believing in the scriptures thats scientifically backed up .

But like you think about these darn Christians, its in one ear and out the other, it doesn't matter really what anyone says.

Your set in your ways unless God presented himself to you right?

So it really doesn't matter what these little truths are and how they have been scientifically proven accurate.

And it's a wonder, why you never will.

Maybe it's cause your afraid, or you just don't care or your mind is already made up.

Good thing scientist don't view things like this, or how could we keep discovering new things and learning the many more marvels of the universe.

Sigh for you.

Cheers to rationality and logic.

And sigh for the effects of uncertainty on some people and the lack of the effects of truth on others.

xxThe_Lebowskixx 10-15-2007 03:12 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
haha

WiiiiiiMan 10-15-2007 03:26 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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haha

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I'll take that as a compliment. LOL...

Thanks for skimming through my rant.

Feel free to load it up in the context machine and spin that baby...........

Splendour 10-15-2007 09:07 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
There's so much misinterpretation of history and history taken out of context in this thread.

One person stated that a skeptic nation has a better chance of functioning than a Christian nation....He needs to check out the most liberal republic of all time...the rise and fall of the Weimar Republic...

Then we've got Hopey's little laundry list...First of all Hopey the Mongols weren't atheists...they believed in multiple gods, goddesses and demons and had an extremely high number of taboo practices...They managed to seize power thru their superior military tactics. i.e. horsepower...Atheism had nothing to do with their successful conquers...
The Japanese aren't Atheists either...They are a combination of Shinto/Buddhist for the most part. They marry Shinto and they bury Buddhist. A merciful country known as the United States of America bailed Japan out by helping to rebuild them after WWII...I daresay you could go to Japan today and find Japanese amazed at Americans doing this since Japan never handled any surrendering enemies in such a gentle fashion in their whole history prior to WWII...take a look at the Bataan Death march or how warring Shogunate factions handled conquered enemies...Not to mention how the U.S. bailed out Germany following WWII through the generosity of the Marshall Plan...

Alex-db 10-15-2007 09:16 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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Atheist don't share an ideology or a basis for it with any specific or general atheistic wrongdoer.


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Saying it doesn't make it so. To not choose is a choice. To eschew a Christian society is to choose the chaos that lies in the direction of a secular society. It may not be chaotic today and Pol Pot may not self-generate, but the potential is greatly increased.

I'm trying to think of the most foul, doubtlessly Christian* world leader in the last century. Whoever gets the nod, he'll be small beer next to Stalin and Mao, or even Pol Pot.

* Hitler is unacceptable for this 'honor'. It's difficult to point to any substantial Christian philosophy guiding his action.

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I know this is simple and probably already mentioned, but your post above obviously implies the following irony:

"I'm trying to think of the most foul, doubtlessly ATHEIST* world leader in the last century. Whoever gets the nod, he'll be small beer next to etc etc.

* Pol Pot is unacceptable for this 'honor'. It's difficult to point to any substantial ATHEIST philosophy guiding his action. "

tpir 10-15-2007 10:26 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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Try to debate someone who can scientifically backup his faith in scriptures is a whole different things.

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What does this even mean? How can you have scientific backup for faith? Wouldn't that take the "faith" out of the faith realm once we had evidence? Sounds like you mean "trust" and are using the hot-word faith in it's place.


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Obviously we can't understand things though that require no limit to space and time, and obviously we are bound by both.

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You could not possibly know that either of these statements are true.


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Whole point is to be logical and rational enough to see how science upholds writings in some scriptures

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Science "upholds" the writing in Moby Dick and War and Peace too. I don't think I see what point you are making here.


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It's only human though, your bound by the same laws as me in our capacity to fully understand the mysteries of the universe. But the things we can understand, if you seek for the truths with an open mind you got a better shot of seeing the brilliant light that started this whole universe.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with you that humans are bounded by certain limitations in understanding the universe. Kind of ironic though that you chastize people for being arrogant but at the same time, you know the truth already!!


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It's a good thing that you don't put yourself in a conversation with people who have logical reasoning for believing in the scriptures thats scientifically backed up.

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Are you one of these people? If so you should start a new thread about logical reasoning for scripture being true and let us ask you questions. There are lots of reasonable non-believers on here who would have plenty of good questions for you to tackle.

Hopey 10-15-2007 12:14 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
Splendour,

I'm a little surprised that you are responding to my posts. You made a big production out of putting me on "ignore" a few weeks ago.

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Then we've got Hopey's little laundry list...First of all Hopey the Mongols weren't atheists...they believed in multiple gods, goddesses and demons and had an extremely high number of taboo practices...They managed to seize power thru their superior military tactics. i.e. horsepower...Atheism had nothing to do with their successful conquers...
The Japanese aren't Atheists either...They are a combination of Shinto/Buddhist for the most part. They marry Shinto and they bury Buddhist. A merciful country known as the United States of America bailed Japan out by helping to rebuild them after WWII...I daresay you could go to Japan today and find Japanese amazed at Americans doing this since Japan never handled any surrendering enemies in such a gentle fashion in their whole history prior to WWII...take a look at the Bataan Death march or how warring Shogunate factions handled conquered enemies...Not to mention how the U.S. bailed out Germany following WWII through the generosity of the Marshall Plan...

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I may have been wrong about the Mongols being atheists (they most likely practiced Shamanism), but the point is that they weren't Christian and yet controlled the largest empire the world has ever seen.

I am well aware that the Japanese practice Shintoism. All I stated in my post is that they are not Christian.

I never stated that "atheism" is what made these nations to be great powers.

What I was responding to was this post:

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But overall, the great ecomonic powers of today have serious Christian roots, perhaps with fading church attendance, but solid roots.

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I was pointing out that over the last 1000 years, there have been plenty of instances of non-Christian world powers. If we want to solely limit ourselves to non-Christian world powers *today*, we can point to Japan and China.

ChrisV 10-15-2007 01:44 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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THere are certainly definitional issues. But overall, the great ecomonic powers of today have serious Christian roots, perhaps with fading church attendance, but solid roots.

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Come back in 50 years and all the Asian countries will be like Japan and South Korea are now.

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You can parse it and spin it as your agenda warrants, but the easiest living is found under the shade tree of Christianity. Why do atheists loathe this fact so very much?

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It's meaningless correlation, related to who happened to conquer who. If you want much, much stronger correlation, look at the role of property rights, constitutional democracy and the rule of law in successful societies. There is nothing particularly Christian about those things. Try finding me an actual Christian theocracy in history that worked out well.

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Lastly, Europe's shining star, the new and perhaps only future hope, Ireland

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lol? That's some pretty serious hyperbole. I've just been to Europe and can report it isn't going up in flames.

ChrisV 10-15-2007 01:47 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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One person stated that a skeptic nation has a better chance of functioning than a Christian nation....He needs to check out the most liberal republic of all time...the rise and fall of the Weimar Republic...

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lol, I have no idea whether the Weimar Republic was actually as liberal as you say, but:

a) It would qualify as a "Christian nation" under OP's definition.

b) The constitution was hopelessly naive

c) It was operating under ridiculously difficult circumstances.

WiiiiiiMan 10-15-2007 03:56 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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Try to debate someone who can scientifically backup his faith in scriptures is a whole different things.

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What does this even mean? How can you have scientific backup for faith? Wouldn't that take the "faith" out of the faith realm once we had evidence? Sounds like you mean "trust" and are using the hot-word faith in it's place.


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Obviously we can't understand things though that require no limit to space and time, and obviously we are bound by both.

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You could not possibly know that either of these statements are true.


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Whole point is to be logical and rational enough to see how science upholds writings in some scriptures

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Science "upholds" the writing in Moby Dick and War and Peace too. I don't think I see what point you are making here.


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It's only human though, your bound by the same laws as me in our capacity to fully understand the mysteries of the universe. But the things we can understand, if you seek for the truths with an open mind you got a better shot of seeing the brilliant light that started this whole universe.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with you that humans are bounded by certain limitations in understanding the universe. Kind of ironic though that you chastize people for being arrogant but at the same time, you know the truth already!!


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It's a good thing that you don't put yourself in a conversation with people who have logical reasoning for believing in the scriptures thats scientifically backed up.

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Are you one of these people? If so you should start a new thread about logical reasoning for scripture being true and let us ask you questions. There are lots of reasonable non-believers on here who would have plenty of good questions for you to tackle.

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What I am saying that is, this info belongs on a "Open Minded Ideology" Forum or Open Minded Religion forum.

Not a bunch of guys who have their minds made up and already decided that scriptures are bogus.

For Example: If I don't want to learn the laws of physics, and I am against it, but someone is trying to show me something and I already decided this is not something I even care to invest anything in, I am probably not going to understand as much as someone who is going in for the thirst of discovery and with an open mind to truth and facts.

There are those out there that think Science is just all BS, and no matter what you present to them, they already made up their mind so they are not letting any logic or reasoning slip through.

Might as well put that energy into a forum of people who don't have their minds made up.

kurto 10-15-2007 03:59 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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Not a bunch of guys who have their minds made up and already decided that scriptures are bogus.


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What about the people who have made up their mind that the scriptures are real?

I'm sure you'd agree that it would be a waste of time having a conversation with them as their minds are closed.

tame_deuces 10-15-2007 04:03 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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One person stated that a skeptic nation has a better chance of functioning than a Christian nation....He needs to check out the most liberal republic of all time...the rise and fall of the Weimar Republic...

[/ QUOTE ]

Speaking of taking something out of context. The weimar republic was an attempt to make democracy in a state where the authorative regime (emperor) had just fallen, it failed to do so, it was plagued by civil strife and revolutions, it never had control of the army (it had to cede that control to get the constitution through), it was plagued by the depression and inflation, near the end it become corrupt and its chancellors were then nothing but presidentially appointed dictators - the only thing making it resemble a democracy whatsoever was suffrage (which isn't enough).

WiiiiiiMan 10-15-2007 04:06 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
Nice answering question with a question.

Well if you can accurately , conclusively, and scientifically demonstrate the absolute truth of such works, then the stuff that is unexplained is easier to put faith into.

That's why.

I know some parts are true, and I have faith that all parts are true.

kurto 10-15-2007 04:09 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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I know some parts are true, and I have faith that all parts are true.


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I notice a pattern to your posts... you have more faith then actual knowledge and that's good enough for you.

WiiiiiiMan 10-15-2007 04:14 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
I know some facts, and some things that are unexplained.

Those facts give me a logical reason to have faith in the unexplained.

tpir 10-15-2007 04:21 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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Not a bunch of guys who have their minds made up and already decided that scriptures are bogus.

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Huh? I am 100% open-minded to the scriptures being non-bogus. All I need is a good reason to believe they are what you say they are. That doesn't seem like too much to ask.


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For Example: If I don't want to learn the laws of physics, and I am against it, but someone is trying to show me something and I already decided this is not something I even care to invest anything in, I am probably not going to understand as much as someone who is going in for the thirst of discovery and with an open mind to truth and facts.

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I definitely have an open mind to truth and facts. I have read the Bible and found it to be totally unsatisfying in explaining much of anything.


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Might as well put that energy into a forum of people who don't have their minds made up.

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Are you saying you don't have your mind made up either? You sound awfully confident and closed for someone who is so hard on other people for not being open.

Since you didn't actually address any of my comments or questions I will take that as evidence that you are incapable of answering. I am open-minded to anything reasonable you want to point out or discuss though.

kurto 10-15-2007 04:25 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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I know some facts, and some things that are unexplained.

Those facts give me a logical reason to have faith in the unexplained.

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This actually makes no sense. You have faith in the unexplained? That is so vague as to be meaningless.

Facts about something explained doesn't necessarily have any bearing on unnamed unexplained things.

You've said nothing.

tpir 10-15-2007 04:32 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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I know some facts, and some things that are unexplained.

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What if those facts you "know" aren't facts though? How do you "know" them? You don't sound open-minded to your own infallibility. How can you accuse anyone else of being close-minded?


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Those facts give me a logical reason to have faith in the unexplained.

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This is quite a stretch of words and pseudo-ideas. I think you effectively said "I have faith because I decided I have faith and I like it."

xxThe_Lebowskixx 10-15-2007 04:45 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
"Not a bunch of guys who have their minds made up and already decided that scriptures are bogus."

So do you also believe in scientific Hindu scriptures or are only Christian scriptures truthful?

LuckOfTheDraw 10-16-2007 01:28 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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"Not a bunch of guys who have their minds made up and already decided that scriptures are bogus."

So do you also believe in scientific Hindu scriptures or are only Christian scriptures truthful?

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Hindu scriptures aren't backed by science.

RustedCorpse 10-16-2007 07:22 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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"Not a bunch of guys who have their minds made up and already decided that scriptures are bogus."

So do you also believe in scientific Hindu scriptures or are only Christian scriptures truthful?

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Hindu scriptures aren't backed by science.

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I seriously almost pissed myself...

This implies that Christan scriptures ARE?

Because I don't know what science classes you took, but dead people don't come back to life. Bread isn't flesh, wine, isn't blood. A woman can't get pregnant without jizz jizz, and generally speaking seas don't part.

I also seem to recall a few Vatican refusals to allow some carbon dating.

I can take a "I believe" but don't imply that there is ANY scientific merit to the vast majority of the scriptures.

To get really technical, most the Hindu and Buddhist "religious" leaders can be proven to exist. Not so much with ol' jesus. So science doesn't reeeally back up your savior much less most the works he represents.

RustedCorpse 10-16-2007 07:46 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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To get really technical, most the Hindu and Buddhist "religious" leaders can be proven to exist. Not so much with ol' jesus. So science doesn't reeeally back up your savior much less most the works he represents.

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He was joking you moron

godBoy 10-16-2007 09:28 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
The forum cares so much about religion because it is logical to believe that this universe and life on our planet cannot simply pop into existence without a cause.

This forum has attracted many people who are fascinated by religion / science and the battle between them. I don't see science having anything that even starts to disprove God's existence but I find those who try to argue this point fascinating and amusing.

The question of God's existence is the most important question one can ask - that's why it's a popular topic.

BuddyQ 10-16-2007 09:46 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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http://www.remnantofgod.org/NaziRCC/...luteHitler.jpg


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LOL. Look at Goebbels (the little bastard, far right), look at his posture, look at his eyes. Now look at the clergy guys. Notice a difference?

Nazi's viciously tried to co-opt both main Christian sects in Germany (they had a thing about control, you see). There was a mix of some meek submission and courageous resistance. Meh, kinda like the French (but they, ya know, erred on the side of submission heh heh).

Volumes have been written on the subject, the issue isn't going to be resolved on the 2+2 forum.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php...uleId=10005206

xxThe_Lebowskixx 10-17-2007 06:03 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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The forum cares so much about religion because it is logical to believe that this universe and life on our planet cannot simply pop into existence without a cause.

This forum has attracted many people who are fascinated by religion / science and the battle between them. I don't see science having anything that even starts to disprove God's existence but I find those who try to argue this point fascinating and amusing.

The question of God's existence is the most important question one can ask - that's why it's a popular topic.

[/ QUOTE ]
how does God pop into existence then? human beings need God to exist, but why does God need human beings? God is a concept that just doesn't work. It is illogical. Is our existence pointless and random without God? Yeah, I think it is. Obviously many people choose the illogical delusion over the harshness of reality. I can't say i blame them, its more convenient to be lazy. I think all non believers have a certain hatred for believers the same way thin people loathe fat people and honest people loath liars. And I guess that hatred is reciprocal since every group of believers claims superiority over everyone else on the planet.

Splendour 10-17-2007 09:21 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
Lebowski: And I guess that hatred is reciprocal since every group of believers claims superiority over everyone else on the planet.

Christians are specifically told not to claim superiority in the New Testament, but to practice humility. Religious groups are claiming divinely revealed truth which is an entirely different thing from superiority. In their zeal to teach the truth some may come across as superior and due to human nature there are some bad apples that have an imperfect understanding of church teachings that think they are superior, but its not the nature of Christianity to teach superiority. Christ said he came to serve.

Humility is a precept Christianity teaches to prevent people from claiming superiority and to continue to maintain the Christian's ability to see truth and to help unbelievers in recognizing truth. But the nature of man is imperfect, subject to temptation and ambition which translates into imperfect and self serving actions. That's why we have the saying "to err is human, but to forgive is divine."

There's also the possibility that a cult can offshoot and give false teachings. Christ said false prophets would follow him.

Edit: my bad, The New Testament also specifically teaches Christians to love. For God IS love. Probably even more than humility this is the central doctrine.

tpir 10-17-2007 09:26 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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The forum cares so much about religion because it is logical to believe that this universe and life on our planet cannot simply pop into existence without a cause.

[/ QUOTE ]
So you conjure up an entity that either *can* pop into existence without cause or simply has always existed "outside of space and time"...or whatever the line is.

This might seem logical, and it's a soothing explanation for lots of people, but in reality it asks many more questions than it answers. And this is all assuming we overlook the appeal to credulity you started with. Maybe life can come to exist through random natural processes that do not have "cause".

Either way, calling this entity you made up God is not fair since He inherits lots of bonus properties that a super-powerful universe-creating entity would not necessarily have.

BuddyQ 10-17-2007 10:05 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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Is our existence pointless and random without God? Yeah, I think it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without intention, it is per se, you don't have to 'think' that it is. If you fling a 6 deck shoe of cards out a 10 story window, and on the ground you see that 40 or 50 cards have, by outrageous chance, formed a little house of cards, does that house of cards have any purpose or a point?

The mystery to me is - where they hell did the cards come from? Will we ever know for certain?

I think most people have some kind of feeling, or 'sense' that existence is not pointless. What ever this 'feeling' is, it has manifested itself through the eons as 'faith' in something 'behind' existence, informing existence. Of course humans being what they are, imperfect, have used this faith, like fire, to varying degrees of both good and bad ends.

Barretboy 10-17-2007 11:04 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
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Is our existence pointless and random without God? Yeah, I think it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without intention, it is per se, you don't have to 'think' that it is. If you fling a 6 deck shoe of cards out a 10 story window, and on the ground you see that 40 or 50 cards have, by outrageous chance, formed a little house of cards, does that house of cards have any purpose or a point?

The mystery to me is - where they hell did the cards come from? Will we ever know for certain?

I think most people have some kind of feeling, or 'sense' that existence is not pointless. What ever this 'feeling' is, it has manifested itself through the eons as 'faith' in something 'behind' existence, informing existence. Of course humans being what they are, imperfect, have used this faith, like fire, to varying degrees of both good and bad ends.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a great analogy.

luckyme 10-17-2007 12:04 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
Of course humans being what they are, imperfect, have used this faith, like fire, to varying degrees of both good and bad ends.


[/ QUOTE ]

"imperfect" whats?

Humans are humans, by definition they are perfect, as a group, and in a general sense individually. huh?

luckyme

scorcher863 10-17-2007 01:59 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
does anyone else find it illogical to assert either
1. there definetely is a god
2. there definetely isn't a god
both seem easily debunked with just a few simple questions.

One thing is for certain, whether we believe there is a god or there isn't, the world and universe continue to exist.

BuddyQ 10-17-2007 03:09 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
Humans are humans, by definition they are perfect, as a group, and in a general sense individually.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I'm perfect, the the hell can't I remember where I put my [censored] car keys!

madnak 10-17-2007 03:49 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
does anyone else find it illogical to assert either
1. there definetely is a god
2. there definetely isn't a god
both seem easily debunked with just a few simple questions.

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd think so, wouldn't you? Unfortunately, very many people maintain that 1. is actually supported logically, and even empirically.

foal 10-17-2007 04:27 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Atheist don't share an ideology or a basis for it with any specific or general atheistic wrongdoer.


[/ QUOTE ]

Saying it doesn't make it so. To not choose is a choice. To eschew a Christian society is to choose the chaos that lies in the direction of a secular society. It may not be chaotic today and Pol Pot may not self-generate, but the potential is greatly increased.

I'm trying to think of the most foul, doubtlessly Christian* world leader in the last century. Whoever gets the nod, he'll be small beer next to Stalin and Mao, or even Pol Pot.

* Hitler is unacceptable for this 'honor'. It's difficult to point to any substantial Christian philosophy guiding his action.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know this is simple and probably already mentioned, but your post above obviously implies the following irony:

"I'm trying to think of the most foul, doubtlessly ATHEIST* world leader in the last century. Whoever gets the nod, he'll be small beer next to etc etc.

* Pol Pot is unacceptable for this 'honor'. It's difficult to point to any substantial ATHEIST philosophy guiding his action. "

[/ QUOTE ]
Didn't you know atheism states you should murder as many people as possible? It's written clearly in the atheist manifesto:

Stalin 10:34 - "Blessed in your knowledge that you will not be punished for your sins in the afterlife, thou must put for thy greatest efforts unto maximizing them."

scorcher863 10-17-2007 04:41 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
You'd think so, wouldn't you? Unfortunately, very many people maintain that 1. is actually supported logically, and even empirically.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Man is stark mad. He cannot create a worm, yet he makes Gods by the dozens.

[/ QUOTE ]
~ Michael De Montaigne


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