Blackwater goes too far
 

CNN

Blackwater employees were involved in a gun battle in Baghdad that resulted in 8 civilian deaths. The Iraqi government has revoked the license of the mercenary army employed Blackwater to do business in Iraq and Prime Minister Malaki has labeled the incident a "crime". Condoleeza Rice is carrying water for Blackwater and is working on smoothing things over with the Iraqis.

I'm starting to think that barring a Democratic presidential victory, the most likely scenario for withdrawl is for the Iraqi government to say we're no longer welcome. This would probably involved the Maliki government being deposed in favor of someone like Sadr. Dare to dream I guess.

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

I was happy to see the Iraqis take immediate action against these contract soldiers and not shrug its shoulders with a copout like 'things happen in war".

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

Hmmmmm.

Pretty much one of the reasons I turned down a job like this in Iraq.

People start shooting at you, you shoot back and then suddenly you maybe dead and more than likely you have killed others. Not a pretty scene AND then add in the political BS from both Iraqi and US gubments and it becomes untenable.

EDIT: The linked story does not realy get into any specifics of how the killed were classified as "civilians." There is the faintest whiff of "giving out speeding tickets at the INDY 500 about this story."

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

Old black water, keep on rollin
Mississippi moon, wont you keep on shinin on me
Yeah, keep on shinin your light
Gonna make everything, pretty mama
Gonna make everything all right
And I aint got no worries
cause I aint in no hurry at all

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

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CNN

Blackwater employees were involved in a gun battle in Baghdad that resulted in 8 civilian deaths. The Iraqi government has revoked the license of the mercenary army employed Blackwater to do business in Iraq and Prime Minister Malaki has labeled the incident a "crime". Condoleeza Rice is carrying water for Blackwater and is working on smoothing things over with the Iraqis.

I'm starting to think that barring a Democratic presidential victory, the most likely scenario for withdrawl is for the Iraqi government to say we're no longer welcome. This would probably involved the Maliki government being deposed in favor of someone like Sadr. Dare to dream I guess.

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Dare to dream, or perchance to nightmare.

I am coming to the conclusion that there are no good solutions to the problems in the Middle East, and that there probably never will be. Every potential solution has a darker shadow lurking just around the corner.

It seems there are some things in this world, or in others, that may just best be left alone.

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

I hope you have more than this : "Rice called al-Maliki to offer "her personal and the U.S. administration's regrets" for the shootings." to characterize what she's doing as "carrying their water"

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

There's no way a bunch of insurgents spraying bullets at a convoy would ever hit innocent civilians. /sarcasm

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

Well, she also said the State Department and the Army will also do an investigation of the incident. Based on 1. according to this Time Magazine article that the State Department is dependent on Blackwater for security and 2. The US has a history of not disciplining or controlling the security contractors, its not hard to guess that her call wasn't simple pleasantries and that this "investigation" will almost certainly exonerate Blackwater.

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

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There's no way a bunch of insurgents spraying bullets at a convoy would ever hit innocent civilians. /sarcasm

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Yeah, but how's the Iraqi PM going to revoke the insurgent group's license to operate? Oh wait! If he managed that, there wouldn't be any such firefights. Might as well go after those OBV evil nasty westerners who dared to return fire when fired upon.

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

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Well, she also said the State Department and the Army will also do an investigation of the incident. Based on 1. according to this Time Magazine article that the State Department is dependent on Blackwater for security and 2. The US has a history of not disciplining or controlling the security contractors, its not hard to guess that her call wasn't simple pleasantries and that this "investigation" will almost certainly exonerate Blackwater.

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The article doesnt say that the State Dept and Army will conduct an investigation, though I assume they would. To assume that it "will almost certainly exonerate Blackwater" is also unfair. Investigations of events in Iraq have hardly whitewashed those incidents (Abu Graib, Mahmoudiya etc).

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

"The Diplomatic Security Service has launched an official investigation, a review that will be supported by the Multi-National Forces-Iraq, State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said."

Diplomatic Security Service = State Department
Multi-National Forces-Iraq = Army

Abu-Ghraib was whitewashed until 60 Minutes did an expose. Plus neither or those incidents involved contractors. I could probably find plenty of nasty crap that Blackwater has done, but I remember one video where a contractor (not necessarily Blackwater, I don't remember) was spraying civilians and laughing about it as he drove down a city street.

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

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I could probably find plenty of nasty crap that Blackwater has done, but I remember one video where a contractor (not necessarily Blackwater, I don't remember) was spraying civilians and laughing about it as he drove down a city street.

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So if one guy does it they're all guilty of it? C'mon dude, that's as bad as blaming every Iraqi for this:

http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/995...250x164fa7.jpg

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

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I could probably find plenty of nasty crap that Blackwater has done, but I remember one video where a contractor (not necessarily Blackwater, I don't remember) was spraying civilians and laughing about it as he drove down a city street.

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So if one guy does it they're all guilty of it? C'mon dude, that's as bad as blaming every Iraqi for this:

http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/995...250x164fa7.jpg

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Bad analogy. It's more like blaming al-Qaeda for that. Nobody is blaming every American for this employee's action, only the company which doesn't take necessary precautions against such employee behavior.

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

I missed the DSS, but multi national forces != Army. More importantly, Iraq is doing their own investigation.

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

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Nobody is blaming every American for this employee's action

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Hang tight, MidGe probably hasn't seen the thread yet.

Al-Qaida didn't string up those bodies and dance around in the streets, regular Iraqi people did.

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

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There's no way a bunch of insurgents spraying bullets at a convoy would ever hit innocent civilians. /sarcasm

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what does this have to do with anything?

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

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There's no way a bunch of insurgents spraying bullets at a convoy would ever hit innocent civilians. /sarcasm

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what does this have to do with anything?

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Is this a serious question or do you think that the insurgents who chose to initiate an ambush of a convoy in an area full of civilians would be using magic bullets that can only hit the members of the convoy? Am I being leveled?

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

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There's no way a bunch of insurgents spraying bullets at a convoy would ever hit innocent civilians. /sarcasm

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what does this have to do with anything?

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Is this a serious question or do you think that the insurgents who chose to initiate an ambush of a convoy in an area full of civilians would be using magic bullets that can only hit the members of the convoy? Am I being leveled?

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no, of course the insurgents are gonna spray all over the place. what does this have to do with this incident?

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

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no, of course the insurgents are gonna spray all over the place. what does this have to do with this incident?

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How many of the dead and wounded civilians were shot with bullets from the insurgents' weapons? Did you automatically assume the answer is zero and that all of the dead and wounded civilians are a result of the Blackwater response to the ambush?

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

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no, of course the insurgents are gonna spray all over the place. what does this have to do with this incident?

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How many of the dead and wounded civilians were shot with bullets from the insurgents' weapons? Did you automatically assume the answer is zero and that all of the dead and wounded civilians are a result of the Blackwater response to the ambush?

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How many of the dead and wounded civilians were shot with bullets from the insurgents' weapons? Did you automatically assume the answer is eight and that none of the dead and wounded civilians are a result of the Blackwater response to the ambush?

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

LOL. JMa, why don't you go ahead and explain to the forum how the Blackwater guys should have responded to the ambush to keep their people alive. I hope it involves cookies and hugs!

My Fav Youtube Blackwater Clip
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXgcQNsUKO0
My favorite Blackwater youtube clip...

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

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LOL. JMa, why don't you go ahead and explain to the forum how the Blackwater guys should have responded to the ambush to keep their people alive. I hope it involves cookies and hugs!

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How do police in NY respond during a shootout? Do they start spraying bullets amongst bystanders? I don't think so. Maybe because Americans value other American lives a bit more than some Americans in foreign lands value foreigners.

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

If you've never been in a war or even feared for your life, it's probably inconceivable how that feels. Many people (not soldiers) have no idea what they'd do. Also, in America, we don't expect bystanders to shoot off guns and IED's while we try to get the villians.

Blackwater is mildly corrupt, but come off your high horses.

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

The question really is how many troops are there from the US and allies in Iraq. Don't just count the official numbers, count also those (privateers) that are paid a lot more then the troops for their exposure (and how much more and why?) and don't even get counted as US or allies casualties. I think the rue figures of death and woundeds would be too unpalatable to the US to re-elect a republican president, if the public knew.

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

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LOL. JMa, why don't you go ahead and explain to the forum how the Blackwater guys should have responded to the ambush to keep their people alive. I hope it involves cookies and hugs!

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How do police in NY respond during a shootout? Do they start spraying bullets amongst bystanders? I don't think so. Maybe because Americans value other American lives a bit more than some Americans in foreign lands value foreigners.

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Um, a police shootout (nearly all of which are instigated by police) is nothing like insurgents with heavy weapons ambushing a convoy.

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

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The question really is how many troops are there from the US and allies in Iraq. Don't just count the official numbers, count also those (privateers) that are paid a lot more then the troops for their exposure (and how much more and why?) and don't even get counted as US or allies casualties. I think the rue figures of death and woundeds would be too unpalatable to the US to re-elect a republican president, if the public knew.

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800. I have trouble stomaching 1, but americans on the whole took the 3k number in stride/

I Find It Fascinating That......
 

I find it fascinating that the OP assumes that Blackwater did something wrong. There are two sides of this story. The OP ignores the possibility that Blackwater's account could be the truth. The Shia govt is notoriously corrupt and the Mahdi Army weilds a lot of influence in this govt...

Is is not possible that Blackwater killed some Mahdi army militia who were attacking Blackwater? Then, is is not feasible that Mahdi army officials would petition the Shia govt to expel them? After all, how can Shia death squads kill Sunni's with impunity if groups like Blackwater kill them first...

This whole occupation has been notoriously bungled... Bush's first mistake was appointing that nitwit General Garner...

Re: I Find It Fascinating That......
 

It doesn't really matter to the Maliki government if Blackwater was wrong or not. The CNN article makes this sound like a 100% standard ambush.

Going after Blackwater is the most politically savvy thing Maliki has done in a long time. Maliki gets to look like he's standing up to the US and kicking foreigners out of Iraq while not doing anything that would impact the actual troop levels.

Expect the press coverage to be much like Haditha. Lots of stories before the investigation with almost no coverage of the outcome.

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

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LOL. JMa, why don't you go ahead and explain to the forum how the Blackwater guys should have responded to the ambush to keep their people alive. I hope it involves cookies and hugs!

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How do police in NY respond during a shootout? Do they start spraying bullets amongst bystanders? I don't think so. Maybe because Americans value other American lives a bit more than some Americans in foreign lands value foreigners.

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I can practically guarantee you that a Blackwater operative's response would not be "spraying bullets amongst bystanders". These arent a bunch of rubes off the street, they are almost all former members of the most highly trained and skilled forces in the DoD. It is much more likely that some insurgent with rudimentary training would be randomly spraying bullets around.

Also, I love the instant assumption with no real basis that the Blackwater guys mustve been the ones that killed the civilians.

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

Update

All travel of US Civilians outside of the Green Zone is stopped. (Blackwater and other contractors accompany these trips most times)

The Iraqis are backing down from revoking Blackwater's license.

Iraq's investigation indicates that Blackwater fired at a unarmed family and there were no insurgents shooting at them. 20 Iraqis died.

Muqtada Al-Sadr is exploiting the incident for PR value

An additional article of atrocities committed by contractors over the last few years that went unpunished. In one case, Blackwater employees who reported one atrocity were fired.

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

This is the worst possible outcome for the Maliki government.

Edit: From the NYT article:

The Iraqi soldier, who said he was standing at a checkpoint on the edge of the square, said he thought the convoy believed the small car was a suicide bomber and opened fire. According to the wounded man, recuperating in Yarmouk Hospital, the car with the family was driving on the wrong side of the road.

The convoy began throwing nonlethal sound bombs, several witnesses said, to keep people in the area away. That drew fire from Iraqi Army soldiers manning watchtowers that are part of an Iraqi Army base on the square. Iraqi police officers, witnesses said, also appeared to be shooting.

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

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This is the worst possible outcome for the Maliki government.

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So, its exactly what you expected? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Blackwater goes too far
 

I expected a bunch of Iraqis blasting away, I just didn't expect them to be Iraqi cops and soldiers.

The Mahdi Army\'s Fingerprints Are All Over This....
 

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Iraq's investigation indicates that Blackwater fired at a unarmed family and there were no insurgents shooting at them. 20 Iraqis died.

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Oh? So the Iraq govt has already completed their 'investigation'.
Wow...the Iraq govt is monstererous corrupt and they can't secure the country....YET....they complete this investigation in record time. Perhaps our FBI dept should send their new agents to Iraq to learn Iraqi investigation techniques. Yes? Obviously Iraq has the best invesigation program in the world as shown by how fast their were able to conclude the investigation. Yes? It would take the US Congress 2-weeks just to authorize the investigation and yet....Iraq already completes this investigation. Perhaps we should have subcontracted the 911 investigation to the Iraqis. Obviously they are the world's best and would have solved the 911 mysteries in record time......

Or......was the order given on what the results should be....and...the investigators dutiful completed their investigation with the proper conclusion? This entire episode has the STINK of the Mahdi army all over it. This post is an exercise to determine which 2+2 posters are gullible and which have enough critical thinking skills to examine this entire scenario with the suspician it deserves.

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Muqtada Al-Sadr is exploiting the incident for PR value

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What a surprise. Obviously A-Sadr has NOTHING to do with this although he is benefiting tremendously from the outcome.