Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

in general I'm pretty sure his perception of me is I bluff/squeeze a lot. the last important pot we played together was this one:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $20 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($3539)
SB ($4009)
BB ($2000)
UTG ($2324.50)
Hero ($2580)
CO ($965.60)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $70</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $120</font>, Button calls $120, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $50.

Flop: ($390) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $100</font>, Button calls $100, Hero calls $100.

Turn: ($690) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO checks, Button checks.

River: ($690) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $360</font>, CO folds, Button calls $360.

Final Pot: $1410

he called down with 77


I thought my small river overbet here was slightly better than check/folding or check/calling



PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $20 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($2176)
SB ($5287.50)
BB ($2744)
UTG ($1188)
Hero ($2967)
CO ($2026.70)

Preflop: Hero is MP with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $70</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $70, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $50.

Flop: ($220) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $160</font>, Button calls $160, BB folds.

Turn: ($540) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: ($540) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $620</font>,

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

i hate your river bet size, if anything you might make him fold a better hand since this would be such a terrible line to bluff with, unless he knows you're on that level, and there's more meta going on than anyone can fathom

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

Your vbetting such a thin range here I don't like it. Whether or not most of his range resides in hands worse than TT is hard to tell.

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

you should swap the river bet sizing for the two hands

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

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you should swap the river bet sizing for the two hands

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note: i am pretty bad at poker

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

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you should swap the river bet sizing for the two hands

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Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

ok so before/after flaming heres my reasoning- Samo is calling in position with a ton of hands including all pairs, big unpaired cards, various SCs and Axs.

After he checks turn I feel like his range is pretty balanced on the river, and my hand is slightly underrepped. the problem i see with any other line is that hes good enough to V-bet/bluff pretty optimally here, so I don't think I can call a bet greater than or = to 2/3 pot (ish).

Again, I could make a smaller vbet of like 280-380 or so, but I still feel like this leads to the same problem where he bluffraises/value raises/ folds/calls enough hands so I can't play even close to optimally.

So I make a small overbet which he hasnt seen before and so is unlikely to bluff over, and I think the majority of his range is made of bluffcatchers/ smaller A combos- and I think he calls this bet enough of the time to show slight +ev...

I tend to overthink [censored] tho.

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

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ok so before/after flaming heres my reasoning- Samo is calling in position with a ton of hands including all pairs, big unpaired cards, various SCs and Axs.

After he checks turn I feel like his range is pretty balanced on the river, and my hand is slightly underrepped. the problem i see with any other line is that hes good enough to V-bet/bluff pretty optimally here, so I don't think I can call a bet greater than or = to 2/3 pot (ish).

Again, I could make a smaller vbet of like 280-380 or so, but I still feel like this leads to the same problem where he bluffraises/value raises/ folds/calls enough hands so I can't play even close to optimally.

So I make a small overbet which he hasnt seen before and so is unlikely to bluff over, and I think the majority of his range is made of bluffcatchers/ smaller A combos- and I think he calls this bet enough of the time to show slight +ev...

I tend to overthink [censored] tho.

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I didn't explicitly say this, but I believe an overbet will widen his calling range (and not just put raising hands into the call category- but get hands hed fold to call) as opposed to any other betsize.

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

Betting 270$ on the river is so much better than betting 620$. Unless your opponent is a retard, which he isnt.

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

I like your bet.

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

interesting, dont know how i feel

i think results are relevant here though

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

Sauce,

Why can't you call a 2/3+ PSB, but can overbet the pot again?

I think the value in your hand usually lies in its inducement of bets on the river. This line should be reserved for meta purposes. Though after seeing him call down with 4th pair on a paired flushed board, maybe that meta is full fledged.

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

Sauce, I don't understand how your hand is under represented. Check

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

People act like his river checking range and river betting range is the same.

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

I like with the metagame I suspect is present

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

I like it but I think the river bet size is unnecessary. He's going to be looking you up with a routine "he could just a missed flush draw or doesnt think I have the ace" type call often enough that you don't need to put in extra chips. I also think he's rarely bluff-raising this river regardless of your bet size, there's no reason to attempt to confuse for the sake of protection.

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

[x] not thin

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

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[x] not thin

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not not not thin at all.

FYP.

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

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I like your bet.

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Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

I like your bet alot too. Almost never gonna get bluff raised here

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

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[x] not thin

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are you retarded?

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

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I like your bet alot too. Almost never gonna get bluff raised here

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Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

I have no idea why you guys are factoring him bluff raising into your play, this is the worst spot ever for a bluff raise and it's rarely gonna happen no matter how much you bet

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

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[x] not thin

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are you retarded?

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Are you?

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

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[x] not thin

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are you retarded?

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Are you?

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maybe

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

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I have no idea why you guys are factoring him bluff raising into your play, this is the worst spot ever for a bluff raise and it's rarely gonna happen no matter how much you bet

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because hes not crap. So if we make what looks like a vb hes good enough to realize his 76 isnt good here and will fold/bluff

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

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I have no idea why you guys are factoring him bluff raising into your play, this is the worst spot ever for a bluff raise and it's rarely gonna happen no matter how much you bet

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because hes not crap. So if we make what looks like a vb hes good enough to realize his 76 isnt good here and will fold/bluff

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Jimmy I think the point is that he is representing fk all with a raise, thus it's a bad spot to bluff.

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

you can bet something like 2/3 the pot to accomplish never getting bluff raised meanwhile still getting more value, the river bet is to thin as played

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

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you should swap the river bet sizing for the two hands

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Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

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I have no idea why you guys are factoring him bluff raising into your play, this is the worst spot ever for a bluff raise and it's rarely gonna happen no matter how much you bet

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because hes not crap. So if we make what looks like a vb hes good enough to realize his 76 isnt good here and will fold/bluff

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Except we made the same bet in the 33 hand and he called with 77 instead of bluffraising. And he actually could've represented a real hand there.

I really think you're very very rarely seeing a river raise, in fact I'd say that if you are expecting that he could bluffraise you would want to induce the bluff and bet/call since he so rarely shows up with a real hand.

Also, it's not like you have to bet 1/2 pot or over pot, 375-400 looks better to me.

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

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you should swap the river bet sizing for the two hands against standard opponents, but vs. an expert like samo, this might work well.

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Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

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I have no idea why you guys are factoring him bluff raising into your play, this is the worst spot ever for a bluff raise and it's rarely gonna happen no matter how much you bet

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because hes not crap. So if we make what looks like a vb hes good enough to realize his 76 isnt good here and will fold/bluff

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Jimmy I think the point is that he is representing fk all with a raise, thus it's a bad spot to bluff.

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so bad its good? I dont get what you're saying dean. You seem to be saying samo never bluff raises this river, which is silly. He never cant show up with a big hand here if hes any good and hes good.

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

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I have no idea why you guys are factoring him bluff raising into your play, this is the worst spot ever for a bluff raise and it's rarely gonna happen no matter how much you bet

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because hes not crap. So if we make what looks like a vb hes good enough to realize his 76 isnt good here and will fold/bluff

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Jimmy I think the point is that he is representing fk all with a raise, thus it's a bad spot to bluff.

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so bad its good? I dont get what you're saying dean. You seem to be saying samo never bluff raises this river, which is silly. He never cant show up with a big hand here if hes any good and hes good.

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Ok, if we can agree on one thing: samo tends to eat bad/straightforward tags alive. Im not an idiot (i hope), I know against an average opponent betting less than half pot with quads and overpotting weak overpairs is not an optimal play OMG. Also, during my analysis probably the weakest point I made was that an overpair stopped a bluffraise. Even Samo doesn't bluff raise me here often because everyone knows I love to call (probably more than I should).

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

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you should swap the river bet sizing for the two hands against standard opponents, but vs. an expert like samo, this might work well if he is on drugs.

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Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

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you should swap the river bet sizing for the two hands against standard opponents, but vs. an expert like samo, this might work well if he is on drugs, which he might be.

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Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

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you should swap the river bet sizing for the two hands against standard opponents, but vs. an expert like samo, this might work well if he shooting heroin into both eyeballs, which he might be, given that he can afford it.

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Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

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you should swap the river bet sizing for the two hands against standard opponents, but vs. an expert like samo, this might work well if he shooting heroin into both eyeballs, which he might be, given that he can afford it, and apparently I can too, since I've been known to snap-call 56 in that spot when I played cero at UB.

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Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

nobody else wouldnt usually bet this flop?

I also would check the river almost always, a bunch of draws missed including some floaty type hands that didnt want to bluff that turn card but now might bet river.

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

This is what I was saying. It seems that this hand is set up perfectly to induce on river rather then extract.

Though with the apparent meta game that may be present, this line works well too I guess. Still wondering why you say this though....

'After he checks turn I feel like his range is pretty balanced on the river, and my hand is slightly underrepped. the problem i see with any other line is that hes good enough to V-bet/bluff pretty optimally here, so I don't think I can call a bet greater than or = to 2/3 pot (ish).'

I don't think your hand is underepped much, nor do I understand why you feel you can't call a 2/3+ PSB but can overbet yourself?

Re: Really, really, really thin value vs Samo
 

River: CRai.. you'll get called about 2% of the time..