Weird situation at Caesars
 

I was playing at the 1/2 table at Caesar's in AC when I saw this situation happen.

On the river of a hand, villian bets approximately 1/3 of his remaining chips. The other player in the hand begins contemplating. Villian says "Come on I need to get out of here, fold already" and proceeds to put the rest of his stack in his pocket. The other player thinks another minute or two and proceeds to fold. The dealer says nothing about villian putting the chips in his pocket.

My question is: what would happen if the other player raised the villian's bet after he took those chips off the table and put them in his pocket? Would he be treated as all in? Would he be allowed to call the raise with the chips in his pockets? What if before he didn't have that much on the table but had enough in his pockets to call? Does anyone have any experience with this kind of situation? I wish this had actually happened so that the villian would have been reprimanded for doing that, he was pretty much a drunk jerk anyway.

Thanks for any clarification you can offer.

Re: Weird situation at Caesars
 

He has to play the chips that were on the table when the hand started.

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He has to play the chips that were on the table when the hand started.

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QFT

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He has to play the chips that were on the table when the hand started.

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Yes, which is why the dealer is unacceptably negligent here.

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He has to play the chips that were on the table when the hand started.

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Yes, which is why the dealer is unacceptably negligent here.

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Little harsh on the dealer aren't we?

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He has to play the chips that were on the table when the hand started.

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Yes, which is why the dealer is unacceptably negligent here.

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Little harsh on the dealer aren't we?

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Maybe the tone and word selection was harsh, but that doesn't make it less true. It is entirely possible that if the other player had raised, the dealer would have required the villain to put his chips back on the table if he wanted to call.

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He has to play the chips that were on the table when the hand started.

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Yes, which is why the dealer is unacceptably negligent here.

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Little harsh on the dealer aren't we?

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Maybe the tone and word selection was harsh, but that doesn't make it less true. It is entirely possible that if the other player had raised, the dealer would have required the villain to put his chips back on the table if he wanted to call.

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Yes, but it that such a big deal? If he gets raised, he either puts his chips back in play or folds. I don't see any reason for the dealer to panic because the chips came off the table. Obviously it would be better if the chips stayed on the table but negligent is way too harsh a term.

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How many chips does he then put back into play though? All the chips in his pocket, including any that were already there? As many chips as he feels like taking back out? If he's got the nuts and the guy pushes does he get to take out that extra $200 he has in there to win more money? If the guy raises and he's got a mediocre hand does he only pull out half of what he took off?

The dealer is definitely negligent here because the dealer has just made it impossible to know how much the guy actually has, it's just turned into a guessing game. Allowing a player to rathole in the middle of the hand? Yeah, I'd say that qualifies as negligent if the dealer saw it happen.

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Floor.

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The dealer is definitely negligent here because the dealer has just made it impossible to know how much the guy actually has, it's just turned into a guessing game. Allowing a player to rathole in the middle of the hand? Yeah, I'd say that qualifies as negligent if the dealer saw it happen.


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What would you like for the dealer to do? He saw it happen as it was happening. I am certain if he knew it was about to happen he would have told the guy not to do it.

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The dealer is definitely negligent here because the dealer has just made it impossible to know how much the guy actually has, it's just turned into a guessing game. Allowing a player to rathole in the middle of the hand? Yeah, I'd say that qualifies as negligent if the dealer saw it happen.


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What would you like for the dealer to do? He saw it happen as it was happening. I am certain if he knew it was about to happen he would have told the guy not to do it.

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I'd like the dealer to at least say something. It's clearly not the dealer's fault that it happened, but to see something that's clearly not allowed and just sit there like it's nothing? At least a "sir, you need to put those chips back on the table until the hand is over".

Are you of the opinion that dealers should let people rathole and just not say anything? Again, i don't think the dealer is negligent in letting it happen, i think they're negiligent in having seen it happen and just sitting there silently.

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The dealer is definitely negligent here because the dealer has just made it impossible to know how much the guy actually has, it's just turned into a guessing game. Allowing a player to rathole in the middle of the hand? Yeah, I'd say that qualifies as negligent if the dealer saw it happen.


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What would you like for the dealer to do? He saw it happen as it was happening. I am certain if he knew it was about to happen he would have told the guy not to do it.

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I'd like the dealer to at least say something. It's clearly not the dealer's fault that it happened, but to see something that's clearly not allowed and just sit there like it's nothing? At least a "sir, you need to put those chips back on the table until the hand is over".

Are you of the opinion that dealers should let people rathole and just not say anything? Again, i don't think the dealer is negligent in letting it happen, i think they're negiligent in having seen it happen and just sitting there silently.

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It depends on the room. if this is a room (or game) where the players are allowed to tell the dealer to STFU and then ignore him the dealer speaking up doesn't really do much.

This always comes as a surprise to people that haven't been around these games much, but there are many casinos where the players are allowed to tell the dealer to STFU or throw things at him for talking. If you are playing in one of these places you should expect the dealer to not talk.

Re: Weird situation at Caesars
 

If the dealer is going to be "ignored" or "yelled at" after pointing out that someone is ratholing chips then that dealer should be calling the floor over. For all we know based on the original post the other player in the hand may/may not know that this player just stuffed who knows how many chips into their pocket. Or they may be a new player who doesn't know you can't do this (this is 1/2 after all).

Whether the dealer gets yelled at or not I still expect them to uphold some basic rules. Or at the very least to call the floor over. At what point would you like the dealer to say something? If they see a player hiding a card to use later should they let it slide because no other player said anything? Should they allow players to slip an extra couple hundred into their stack after they look down and see aces?

Maybe I've just been lucky. I've played in quite a few B&M's and have never seen an instance where a dealer clearly saw someone cheat and just let it go because they didn't feel like saying anything.

Just out of curiosity are you a dealer RR? You have the sound of having dealt in some of these rooms where dealers are having things thrown at them for daring to speak.

(Also I would have less problem with this if it were a higher stakes games where dealers do oftentimes take more of a backseat role of simply dealing out cards and pushing pots. I would put more of the responsibility on the other player in the hand, though I'd still expect the dealer to point out that it happened at least, but this is 1/2...for all anyone knows neither one of the players in the hand even realize anyone has done anything wrong)

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If the dealer is going to be "ignored" or "yelled at" after pointing out that someone is ratholing chips then that dealer should be calling the floor over. For all we know based on the original post the other player in the hand may/may not know that this player just stuffed who knows how many chips into their pocket. Or they may be a new player who doesn't know you can't do this (this is 1/2 after all).

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You are missing the point. In rooms where this is allowed the floor will confirm that the dealer should STFU so the players don't have to tell him. This thing is going away in all but the biggest games.

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Whether the dealer gets yelled at or not I still expect them to uphold some basic rules

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In these rooms the most basic rule is the dealer has nothing to say.

edit to add: I was speaking in very general terms. I doubt the game discussed in the OP is one where the players are able to throw things at the dealer without penalty.

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So basically the rule is cheat all you want as long as no players see you? If the dealer sees it they'll just look the other way? I can't decide if I want to go to these rooms with 8 friends and just try to shaft that one other player or avoid them like the plague.

I can't even imagine the randomized mayhem that would ensue at most 1/2 games I've seen where half the players have no clue, and the other half have a clue but are wrong on 90% of what they deem the "rules".

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So basically the rule is cheat all you want as long as no players see you? If the dealer sees it they'll just look the other way? I can't decide if I want to go to these rooms with 8 friends and just try to shaft that one other player or avoid them like the plague.

I can't even imagine the randomized mayhem that would ensue at most 1/2 games I've seen where half the players have no clue, and the other half have a clue but are wrong on 90% of what they deem the "rules".

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I edited my last post while you were typing. And no cheating occurred in the OP. There is no reason to believe the player was going to try to keep the chips he put in his pocket if the other player raised. For that matter maybe the other player was covered and all he could do would was call or fold. This would be a perfect example of a spot where the dealer really needs to STFU. I am playing my last hand. I bet enough to put the other player all in if he calls and I start picking up my chips because I am leaving. Do you really think the dealer should tell me I'm not allowed to pick up my stuff until the other player decided what he wants to do?

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This thing is going away in all but the biggest games.


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Its not entirely going away, its altering in form.I was recently chastised bya floor for telling a player not to speak a foreign language during a hand. The player complained and I was told that I shouldn't say anything about it unless someone at the table raises the issue.

Sure this isn't being told STFU. If the player said that to me, the floor would probably not be as tolerant about it, and if a player threw something at me its even more likely the floor wouldn't tolerate it (though I did have a player slap my hand once with no repercussions); but there is a growing sentiment of let the players do what they want or they will go elsewhere but at the same time floors still will protect a dealer somewhat from the most rude and abusive players.

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To clarify here, the other player did have chips left to raise, he had not been put allin. If he had I might be able to accept the villian's action, but since he could still raise it just looks like angle shooting or plain ignorance.

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I agree that this isn't "cheating". That was more in reference to the comment that dealers deal the cards and say nothing pretty much no matter what (my interpretation of what you were saying).

I would also argue that picking up your chips is not the same as taking your chips and stuffing them into your pocket. In all likelihood the player has no other chips in there but who knows. Even so I'd still like to see the dealer at least say something, particularly at a 1/2 game. Even if it's just a reminder so that other players at the table aren't thinking that stuffing chips into your pocket during a hand is an acceptable practice.

Ok so i'll retract my "negligent" and replace it with "i wouldn't let a dealer like this deal in my non-existent card club"

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So basically the rule is cheat all you want as long as no players see you? If the dealer sees it they'll just look the other way? I can't decide if I want to go to these rooms with 8 friends and just try to shaft that one other player or avoid them like the plague.

I can't even imagine the randomized mayhem that would ensue at most 1/2 games I've seen where half the players have no clue, and the other half have a clue but are wrong on 90% of what they deem the "rules".

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I edited my last post while you were typing. And no cheating occurred in the OP. There is no reason to believe the player was going to try to keep the chips he put in his pocket if the other player raised. For that matter maybe the other player was covered and all he could do would was call or fold. This would be a perfect example of a spot where the dealer really needs to STFU. I am playing my last hand. I bet enough to put the other player all in if he calls and I start picking up my chips because I am leaving. Do you really think the dealer should tell me I'm not allowed to pick up my stuff until the other player decided what he wants to do?

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What if the ratholer doesn't have the guy covered by chips on the table, but had extra chips in his pockets that would cover it and this was all 1 big angle to get those chips on the table? What would the recourse then be?

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He has to play the chips that were on the table when the hand started.

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Yes, which is why the dealer is unacceptably negligent here.

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Little harsh on the dealer aren't we?

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I didn't mean for it to be harsh, just straightforward. I just meant that the dealer should be on top of this. There are worse things dealers can do, but it's important to keep the cash on the table. I don't think the dealer should be fired or anything.

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How many chips does he then put back into play though? All the chips in his pocket, including any that were already there? As many chips as he feels like taking back out? If he's got the nuts and the guy pushes does he get to take out that extra $200 he has in there to win more money? If the guy raises and he's got a mediocre hand does he only pull out half of what he took off?


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If hes putting the money in his pocket and not using a rack hes probably not holding that much. I'm sure the players at the table could put him within $20 of what he took off. If not go to the cameras. (casinos do have a couple of those around)

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How many chips does he then put back into play though? All the chips in his pocket, including any that were already there? As many chips as he feels like taking back out? If he's got the nuts and the guy pushes does he get to take out that extra $200 he has in there to win more money? If the guy raises and he's got a mediocre hand does he only pull out half of what he took off?


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If hes putting the money in his pocket and not using a rack hes probably not holding that much. I'm sure the players at the table could put him within $20 of what he took off. If not go to the cameras. (casinos do have a couple of those around)

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That's true if he's using all $1 or $5 chips. I've seen plenty of 1/2 games using $25 and $100 chips in play which makes it a lot harder. And yes you can go to cameras, have you been on a table where they have to go to cameras for something? You might as well go home cuz the game is gonna be stopped for a LONG time. And the time to determine how much money he has in play is BEFORE the other player potentially raises, not after he's pushed then play "guess the amount" on how much the other player took off the table. The problem isn't so much this one time, the problem is that by letting this happen the dealer is setting a precedent that it's ok, which it's not. I have less problem with him doing it than I do with the fact that the dealer just ignores it. It just shows that the dealer either doesn't know or doesn't care about enforcing some basic rules.

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the guy could of realised that it was likely his opponent pocketing his remaining chips meant that he was not going to commit anymore... in other words , "IM ALLIN!"
fold equity ftw

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The dealer is definitely negligent here because the dealer has just made it impossible to know how much the guy actually has, it's just turned into a guessing game. Allowing a player to rathole in the middle of the hand? Yeah, I'd say that qualifies as negligent if the dealer saw it happen.


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What would you like for the dealer to do? He saw it happen as it was happening. I am certain if he knew it was about to happen he would have told the guy not to do it.

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All dealers are supposed to be endowed with godlike powers that allow them to make everyone else behave perfectly but not interfere with YOUR play.

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this thread makes me wonder how much time these posters have spent playing live in a casino. It is not uncommon for someone to begin racking up or putting chips in their pocket prior to leaving. I am reasonably certain if the outcome had been different, like a reraise, then the dealer would have stepped in and either made it right or called the floor depending upon the situation.

You want the game to keep moving so a dealer shouldn't jump in at every little infraction or the game will degenerate in to a NITfest and kill the action.

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you are right that it isnt common for a player to rack up their chips, but putting their chips in their pockets while in a big hand isn't something I understand to be common. This is clearly not allowed and I feel the dealer has the right AND the duty to say something about it. I don't know where this whole "dealers shouldn't say a word about anything" thing is coming from, but I believe that part of their job is to make sure there is no cheating. This type of action is very suspicious and falls under the realm of things that should be reprimanded. Its fine if they don't say much at a 50/100 game or something, those people should know better and likely would be caught by everyone at the table if they tried to do something like that, but at a 1/2 game where half the people are noobs and dont know the rules, this thing needs to be addressed.
However, this is just my opinion, perhaps I'm missing some key aspect of the discussion.

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I play in a casino on a fairly frequent basis which is why I'm amazed that the dealer didn't at least say something. It's definitely not uncommon for people to rack up for their last hand but they don't shove chips in their pockets. It's also not uncommon for a good dealer to immediately inform the offender that their chips must stay on the table until they are done playing. So now we're saying dealers shouldn't jump in at EVERY little infraction? So we're gonna let dealers pick and choose which rules to enforce and which to let go? That's actually probably my biggest problem with the entire hand, that the dealer either doesn't know or doesn't care that a rule is being broken.

I have no doubt that in this particular case it probably ends up being not that big of a deal either way. Especially if the player in the hand doesn't say anything. I'd actually prefer that the dealer didn't know the rule than thinking the dealer has decided to pick and choose what rules count and what don't.

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Bet your sweet ass that if I'm in the pot with the villian, the second he goes to put his chips away, I'm jumping up. Furthermore, I'm going to know how much he has on the table in front of him before his action, too.

You can't always put it on the dealer, because some of them are morons, too.

It depends on who you are, and what you plan on doing. If you are going to fold anyway, stop bitching and holding the game up. If you know you plan on playing the hand out, the second someone tries to interfere with that through ANY method, I am stopping them.

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Clearly not many people posting in this thread have been to Caesar's in AC. Worst dealers and floor in the state.