100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until turn
 

Good 100/200 game online with 6 players. I have been winning and showing down big hands. Villain is probably a losing player and is not overly aggressive, but is also not a complete moron, just not too good or sophisticated, my type of opponent.

Folded to me, I raise on the button with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Villain calls in the sb, BB folds.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (450) He checks, I bet, He checkraises, I call.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (850) He bets, I raise, He 3bets, I call.

River: Q:hearts: (2050) He bets, I call.

Your Thoughts? I am interested particularly in villains flop checkraising range, which based on board could include all sorts of combo draws. Is calling the checkraise and raising a safe turn card or card that makes me the nut low a standard play against an average villain? Thanks

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]2handed - I think you overplayed your aces on the turn.[ QUOTE ]
I am interested particularly in villains flop checkraising range

[/ QUOTE ]Reasonable. If I wanted to do that I'd just call him down.

Given your description of Villain, I'd tentatively put him on a flopped set for the flop check-raise.

Buzz

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

I'd 3-bet him on the flop as a default, since you're often drawing to the same low (though he probably has backup) and your hi is thus often good. If he caps the flop, I'd probably still raise the turn as you did, but I'd be happier if he called and then c/r'd the turn, so that 2 bets went in on that street as opposed to 3). When he doesn't slow down on the turn, the Villain you described has at least Qs up, and usually a set. Think of it this way: he knows you'll never fold with the lo draw out, so his c/r is for value. What does he have that doesn't beat AA? Sometimes he has 2 flush draws and a low draw, I guess.

It's hard to quibble with a call on the end getting 11:1, but you really can't beat anything on the river after a not too agg villain 3-bets you on that turn (except the aforementioned double flush draw).

His c/r'ing range for the flop IMO is A4xx, 456x, sets, and that's pretty much it (Oh fine--AQ53 as well). If he super-sucks, then some bare 2 pair or a set with no low draw is in there.

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

Buzz,
These shorthanded higher stakes online games probably play in a way you are not accustomed to but the standard play is definitely to 3bet the flop here. The average level of aggression is very high and bluffs are very common. People will play the board texture against you and this board really does not favor my raising range. Even weaker and less aggressive opponents are checkraising a fair portion of the time OOP. Sure I am going to get blasted by a set some of the time, but my hand is pretty strong and due to my image it looks like my low got counterfeited so that would open up his checkraising range to two pair type hands with a low draw. I wouldn't exclude a hand like 2346 unsuited from this guys range. Nonetheless, you may well be right about me overplaying my hand here, but I would like to hear your reasoning and not just be given a one sentence chiding.

I think the difficulty of raising the turn as I did is that I am subjected to a 3 bet while I am behind. Against an opponent who I have a better read on as being super aggressive this play is less questionable and spewy since he will much less of the time have a set, but I still think it is an interesting spot even if it is read dependant.

Cero,
I pretty much agree with your analysis, but I think both you and buzz might have been influenced by the fact I got threebet on the turn, and I wish now that I had ended this post on the hand at my raising and done the post in two parts.

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

did you consider 3 betting the flop and bluffing a club turn/river?

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

[ QUOTE ]
did you consider 3 betting the flop and bluffing a club turn/river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pointless IMO because at these stakes people won't fold anything that beats AA after the pot gets this big.

2handed, I may've been influenced by the results, as you say, but my point was that you should be trying to get 1 or 2 bets into the pot vs. a not-very-agg opponent, as opposed to the 3 or 4 you'd shoot for against a more typical overplayer/bluffer.

Also, I've played against a lot of these guys, as well, so if you post names (if it's not too damning/embarrassing), I'd be interested and could offer more feedback.

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nonetheless, you may well be right about me overplaying my hand here, but I would like to hear your reasoning and not just be given a one sentence chiding.

[/ QUOTE ]2handed - Please accept my humble apology for that. I did not intend it to be chiding, but I can see how you would take it that way (because "a one sentence chiding" is exactly what it looks like).

Sorry.

I simply thought over-playing aces might be a possible overall flaw in your game. I think over-playing aces is a common mistake many Omaha-8 players make (especially those who have a successful background playing Texas hold 'em).

In this particular situation, given your description of Villain, when Villain check-raises you after this particular
2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] flop, I would tentatively put Villain on a flopped set, very possibly queens. There are also various other possibilities.

But that check-raise from the player you describe, assuming your description is correct, is like a gong signaling (screaming) "set" to me. And if Villain has flopped a set, you are way, way behind with your bare pare of aces and counterfeitable low draw.

I don't know if Villan has flopped a set or not, but I'd play as though he very well might have.

Buzz

(Sorry again, for the chiding. I honestly didn't mean it that way).

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until turn
 

Do people more frequently check-raise the massive draw (a456 w/nut clubs or some lesser variation) or a set at sh 100/200?
Am I the only one not crazy about check-raising either, from villain's perspective? unless he puts u on aa and he's bluffing? Do people go to war on turn with just massive draw?

id be interested in getting general assessments of what % of the time villain has a) massive draw b) weak draw/air c) quality made hand in this particular situation at this limit

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

Buzz, don't worry about it, I accept your apology and I really was not insulted. Although I could always improve my play with aces, particularly as part of high only hand, I do think I have a good grasp of the fundamentals of this form of poker.

I also think based on my read you and Cero are right on about not giving this player too much action with one pair. But I would like to know if you think against other players who are wilder and more aggressive if this a viable line to take, and how wild said player would need to be before I tried this play.

Results: He had QQ87, after I this showdown I definitely changed my strategy against him. I think the memory of this play and following plays he made may have influenced my read of him, which at the time really was undeveloped. How does my play look against an unknown?
Sorry I don't really remember his name cero, something 'nok' if I see him later I will recognize it.

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do people more frequently check-raise the massive draw (a456 w/nut clubs or some lesser variation) or a set at sh 100/200?
Am I the only one not crazy about check-raising either, from villain's perspective? unless he puts u on aa and he's bluffing? Do people go to war on turn with just massive draw?

id be interested in getting general assessments of what % of the time villain has a) massive draw b) weak draw/air c) quality made hand in this particular situation at this limit

[/ QUOTE ]

They c/r both pretty consistently, and only the better players understand that it's often not a good idea to c/r with just a set in a 3-bet (pre) pot when 2 wheel cards and a 2-flush flop. However, note that villain didn't have just a set here; he had a bad low draw that could become good if an Ace or 4 were to fall--i'd like his play less on a Q45 flop, where there's less chance of the pre-flop raiser getting counterfeited if he has his most common holding: A2wx, where x is another card working well with the hand. On the 23Q flop, there's a fair chance of the pfr already having paired one of his low cards (thus being somewhat close to a counterfeit low situation). In re: to your second question, it's a common weakness for players at 1/2 to not slow down on the turn with a draw. The good players IMO just do it often enough to keep you off balance.

I think this overplaying by bad players stems from most of them coming from high-limit Holdem, where a huge draw is rare enough that when you're jamming the turn, you usually have the big hand, not the draw, and of course your opponents usually have less overall, so it's more correct to always jam there.