Weird Hand on All Streets
 

I'm running at 24/17. I got my stack by getting it in w/oesfd vs set and winning and snapping off a big bluff w/AK on ace-high board and haven't been out of line.

Hero (UTG): $7,575
MP: $2,257
CO: $2,057
BTN: $2,072
SB: $1,652.46
BB: $4,140

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $70</font>, MP calls $70, CO folds, BTN calls $70, <font color="red">SB raises to $180</font>, BB folds, Hero calls $110, MP calls $110, BTN calls $110

SB is 30/7 over 63 hands. So the first question is: what should I do here? One very good poster claims fold cuz he always has KK/AA. Another says reraise call it off. I opted to call. The two people behind me who called are both 16/11ish players so I'm treading lightly in this hand.

Flop: ($740) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $220</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $440</font>, MP folds, BTN calls $440, SB folds

The plan was to fold to a cold push by either of the 16/11s and to get it in vs the preflop reraiser. Now the button coldcalls with the reraiser still to act and I start freaking out. What do you guys think of this line? I think the flop is the toughest spot by far in this hand.

Turn: ($1,840) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

Well, he doesn't have 22. I think I'm still crushed. I check w/intention of folding. He checks back. Slowplay or am I good here?

River: ($1,840) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero ...is lost

Check/fold? Shove? Bet 500? Check/call? What do you guys do here?

Comments on all streets appreciated.

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

I'd check or bet like 400

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

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I'd check or bet like 400

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Sweet. What do you think he calls 400 with? What do you think of flop play/preflop?

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

C/F your crushed here, depending on what degree of bad your opponent is here he either has a larger pocket pair or a smaller one and flopped a set. In a 4 way pot this over call and turn check combined scream strength.

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

check/fold seems right

I think this is a FH a whole lot. If he has JT he'll probably check it back but not call a bet.

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

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One very good poster claims fold cuz he always has KK/AA

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Sweet. What do you think he calls 400 with? What do you think of flop play/preflop?

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If he always has AA/KK here why would we fold wouldn't we have incentive to call b/c we have position and stand to make a lot when we flop a set?

Our very good poster may have a point if 2 players didn't just call you UTG 3.5 BB opener, but 90% of the time those 2 are coming too.

I think preflop is fine in this spot unless one of the people that called you has a reputation of reraising in this spot.

Why min raise on the flop? Either define your hand as strong or get out.

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

[ QUOTE ]

Sweet. What do you think he calls 400 with? What do you think of flop play/preflop?

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QQ +

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

FWF this hand is so confusing.... a 30/7 came over the top of a UTG raise and 3 callers. How can you assume he has anything but AA or KK? (obv he didnt, but still) and on the flop... i dont see how this can be profitable at all. Sb can easily have you beat (and wont fold if he does). When the button cold calls on the flop, his check behind on the turn can still mean strength. He only needs 1 street to get it allin after the flop, so he can check behind a set. i think river is a c/f but i dont think id ever find myself in that spot in the first place

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

I would like someone to ignore FWF's analysis on the hand (trust me) and come up with a solid explantion as to how check/folding &gt; check/calling -it doesn't make sense.

Surely the call of the minraise coupled with the check back (lol pot control) necessitates a V.bet here some of the time.

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

I just call flop, c/f river as played. I think folding flop is o.k. too.

Highly doubt he pays off 500 on river w/JT.

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

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Why min raise on the flop? Either define your hand as strong or get out.

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He's looking to get it in against preflop reraiser. Why would he want to define his hand as strong??

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

I call pre, I flat the flop and try to check it down maybe vbetting the riv if board comes clean. As played the minraise for a free showdown worked pretty well I'd just check behind.

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

i dont like the min raise of flop with plan to get it in at all, i just flat the eflop and take it from there

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

If he is reraising 7% of the time, his RR range is wider than AA/KK/QQ. So why not RR PF to like 75% of pot? U can fold to any villain's shove...

If ur just gonna call PF, why would u raise a dry flop when if you u behind AA-QQ, u are practically getting set/bd straight odds with SB's bet?

Turn if fine OoP given action.

Why not semi bluff the river with a C/R if he tries to VB?
C/R&gt;CF&gt;CC

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

Flat the flop and see what happens. This raise just seems bad for so many reasons. C/F the river seems right as this is almost always a full house.

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

C/f the river I guess. This looks like QQ or another JJ more then anything.

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

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I call pre, I flat the flop and try to check it down maybe vbetting the riv if board comes clean. As played the minraise for a free showdown worked pretty well I'd just check behind.

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We got called by a different player in the pot who coldcalled our flop minraise of the lead bettor and we're OOP to this player.

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

whoever told you to 4-bet this preflop and get it in is just crazy.

i like the minraise on the flop but honestly i'd prob fold to anyone who comes over the top. including the pfr. he has to have AA/KK a ton with this action.

i think there's a decent chance you're getting slowplayed when the board pairs and if not, BTN has to be pretty bad to pay you off with a worse hand to a bet (or you have to have a better image in multiway pots than you do... i.e. real spewy). so i check the river

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

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I call pre, I flat the flop and try to check it down maybe vbetting the riv if board comes clean. As played the minraise for a free showdown worked pretty well I'd just check behind.

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i agree with the first sentence but i guess cts missed that the guy you were trying to get free showdown against folded and the guy who you are OOP against cold called. so i'd C/F river.

also i think folding the flop is fine as well.

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

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I'd check or bet like 400

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Sweet. What do you think he calls 400 with? What do you think of flop play/preflop?

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I don't really care what he calls 400 with I'm looking for a cheap showdown that I sometimes win, but don't have to call a big bet most of the time, and like we win sometimes. Your flop play looks really really weak and I think I would just fold on the flop most of the time. As for the turn you can do nothing but check fold.

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

i think you are getting slowplayed here 110% of the time. Whenever they cold-call pre, their range is hugely weighted toward pocket pairs. Then when they call a reraise, they almost have to have a pocket pair. You have an overpair to the board but its the worst one, i dont think hes calling you with 55 here. If someone could name 5 hands he would play like this on the flop and turn and not have 9's or esp 10's full, i would be shocked. the board pairing the turn as the bottom card is just the icing on the cake.

If you aren't getting slowplayed, he will check behind 120% of the time. Thats like a 230% reason to check/fold here imo.

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

"He's looking to get it in against preflop reraiser. Why would he want to define his hand as strong??"

Betting this hand past the flop even if BTN folded would be thin.

If the BTN folded what do you think SB would call your min raise with?

When during this hand does it look like a good time to get it in vs the preflop reraiser?

You had the possibility of having the best hand on the flop before BTN over called you but now your almost completely dead.

RESULTS
 

Yeah flop was probably slightly bad. I just didn't want to give up any free cards and I thought there's no way to do that without committing myself vs the preflop reraiser but in hindsight that's a mistake and I should play for pot control.

Anyway, on the river he checked back and I beat his TJs.

Re: RESULTS
 

i would have vb the river small too. he just called your min raise on the flop and declined to bet on the turn.

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

folding preflop is retarded no matter what range you put him on. if you think he's very strong call, if not stack off. i lean toward call cuz i think he's aa/kk a lot here and weird stuff like jts or 66 most of the rest of the time.

flop: hate your raise, i fold to the lead out and prefer call &gt; raise by a lot.

turn: c/f

river: c/f. at this point i put villain pretty solidly on jt/t7/76, if he decides to bluff with top pair good for him. also, 76 is combinatorially more likely that the others.

edit: missed that turn paired the board, this increases the chance that he's played a set/quads like this up to the river. all the more reason to c/f.

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

Folding preflop seems like a big mistake to me. SB nearly minraises and you can expect everyone else to usually fall in line once you call, so you're getting too good of a price to muck. SB's line seems strange to me. It looks like a line he'd take if he wanted you to re-pop it, so i'm against re-raising here. So I agree with the preflop call.

On the flop I think raising is the only viable play with the amount the SB bet and two players left to act behind you. If you call w/ the best hand you're laying a tremendous price for the players behind you, so I like a raise, but I'd raise slightly more, $500-$525. I think there's very few hands you're ahead of on the river, and in general I like a check fold, but I'm torn about checking the turn. I could be completely wrong here, but isn't 67s, 89s, and JT a fair enough part of a 16/11's range to consider a turn bet? I might be completely off base here, but I think a turn bet isn't terrible and if I knew more accurately how a 16/11 played I may or may not advocate betting the turn, but against a lot of players I follow through hoping to get value/price out/get a little FE with a turn bet.

As played I think it's a coin flip between b/f something like $500 or c/f, b/c i think 88-QQ is a big part of his range here. I know that sort of contradicts what I said above regarding betting the turn, which, I think is the hardest decision in the hand. I think if you bet $500 on the river you might occasionally get looked up by JT, T9, and 89, and it's less likely for him to turn one of those hands into a PSB river bluff.



-Tex

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

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The plan was to fold to a cold push by either of the 16/11s and to get it in vs the preflop reraiser.

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I'm confused by this. If the preflop raiser is so tight why are you looking to get it all in against him in this spot?

As played I guess TJ and a full house are his only possible hands aren't they. Imo betting for value would have been stupid.

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

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One very good poster claims fold cuz he always has KK/AA.

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that is pretty funny...

depending on player, i have 4bet here plenty...

and i think u played it perfect, i c/f now...

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

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I call pre, I flat the flop and try to check it down maybe vbetting the riv if board comes clean. .

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agree on all points, and vs some villains id fold flop but thats rare

as played c/f turn and river

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

does the fact that after he reraises pre that the other 2 guy will defiently call after u call and most likely putting u in a really bad spot on most flops when the Reraiser cbets the flop becuase u still have those 2 other people to act behind should it make u more inclined to fold pre?

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

how did my thoughts get posted through your keyboard?

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

AFTER TURN CHECK YOU SHOULD WIN ENOUGH TO PUT IN 4-500 AT THE RIVER
maybe

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

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AFTER TURN CHECK YOU SHOULD WIN ENOUGH TO PUT IN 4-500 AT THE RIVER
maybe

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BANANABANANABANANABANANABANANA

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

[ QUOTE ]
does the fact that after he reraises pre that the other 2 guy will defiently call after u call and most likely putting u in a really bad spot on most flops when the Reraiser cbets the flop becuase u still have those 2 other people to act behind should it make u more inclined to fold pre?

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more inclined to fold yes, but i still call planning on almost never winning a pot where i don't flop a set.

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

I wouldnt fold pre-flop. You have a positional advantage over the reraiser and other players will inevitably be in the hand to keep him honest.

Flop looks good. You might make an argument for just calling, but a minraise is good too.

Turn is good. River is a check/fold unless he bets a very small amount.

Re: RESULTS
 

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Yeah flop was probably slightly bad. I just didn't want to give up any free cards and I thought there's no way to do that without committing myself vs the preflop reraiser but in hindsight that's a mistake and I should play for pot control.

Anyway, on the river he checked back and I beat his TJs.

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i was just about to post that he can have jt a bunch and thats a great hand to vbet against here because a lot of people will have trouble folding top pair (!)... still not sure what id do, pretty player dependent imo. check fold to a lot of people, but i think half potting against some is alright too.

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

on the flop his range includes sets, two pair, and straight draws. any set bets turn, so check behind eliminates sets, unless he has 88 and wants a showdown fearing you have 99 - since from villain's perspective this is a reasonable holding for you.

you are almost always ahead on river and villain likely checks behind. so, bet the biggest amount 89, jt, t7, or 76 makes crying call with. 500 seems like it will get a call, but the exact amount depends on feel, of course.

i personally don't like the flop min raise here since you are unlikely to have the best hand and sb isn't deep enough that you can fold him out often enough to be profitable. i think you got lucky that button called, thereby causing sb to freak out like you and fold.

this hand seems surprisingly straightforward, so i'm not sure if this is a level.

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

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on the flop his range includes sets, two pair, and straight draws. any set bets turn, so check behind eliminates sets, unless he has 88 and wants a showdown fearing you have 99 - since from villain's perspective this is a reasonable holding for you.

you are almost always ahead on river and villain likely checks behind. so, bet the biggest amount 89, jt, t7, or 76 makes crying call with. 500 seems like it will get a call, but the exact amount depends on feel, of course.

i personally don't like the flop min raise here since you are unlikely to have the best hand and sb isn't deep enough that you can fold him out often enough to be profitable. i think you got lucky that button called, thereby causing sb to freak out like you and fold.

this hand seems surprisingly straightforward, so i'm not sure if this is a level.

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are you leveling me here? you have to be. a check back rules out him being full? unless he's worried with 2nd nut boat? and i should bet an amount that 89, TJ, and 7J and 67 call when those last two beat me? and you really think sb freaked out and folded the winner as opposed to his having had AK or some other worse hand? and you bumped this thread for that crap? please never post strategy again.

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

A player with 7%pfr 3 bet out of the small blind. He has a PP.

Like others have said, at the river every PP above 77 beats you. I vote for him having 9s full.

Re: Weird Hand on All Streets
 

I think people are grossly over-estimating how often we beat the donkish SB here with his line after his flop bet into 3 other players. I call the flop bet with intentions of not putting much more money into the pot unless it seems reasonable.