Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

There were a couple very interesting and I believe important statements in oldbookguy's thread, Meeting with Senator Rockefeller Office June 22 from his meeting with Sen. Rockefeller (and let me add another "attaboy!" for same), where he relates the following:

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He is most upset that a treaty obligation is being broken and the reality now is it should be a Senate issue since this is their domain so to speak.

At the end of the meeting a comment was made to me; "if this was not so serious it would be comical a game of cards can cause such a international problem". I of course agreed. It would be comical if it were not really to important now given the developments.

[/ QUOTE ]


To be honest I am surprised that the WTO issue is taken seriously by an important senator. But since it obviously is in view of the possible ramifications for future US interests in the WTO, not to mention possible sanctions, then I would propose that lobbyists for the PPA and ourselves seek to leverage that concern in the following manner.

The senate from time to time passes non-legislative resolutions known as "the sense of the senate", where it expresses its concerns about various issues. Since this doesn't involve legislation, it is easier for a senator to vote for a resolution expressing the desire to deal with an issue, without having to specify the actual means, and usually with an eye to having the administration investigate what further action should be taken.

So it seems to me that we need to get a senator to introduce such a sense of the senate resolution expressing concern about the U.S. violating its international committments wrt the GATTS treaty, and which threaten via WTO litigation to expose U.S. industries to costly sanctions. And stating that the administration should draw up a plan to bring the U.S. into compliance, rather than seeking to further violate treaty obligations, or maintain legal positions that are contrary to both WTO intepretations and established U.S. court rulings (i.e. as to how the Wire Act is to be interpreted and how wide its scope is).

Such a resolution at the very least would bring this issue to greater prominence in both the news media and on capitol hill, and also prepare the way as it were for various legislative initiatives now underway in the house. And again, since the exact means of compliance aren't specified (yet), then such a resolution might be easier to pass.

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

I'm not sure we are going to see anything WTO-wise again until July 24th or so. From what I have seen and read, everything that transpires is flat against deadlines and meetings. That day is when Antigua's sanction request is heard. I think before any senator touches gambling with a ten foot amendment, real pain is going to have be staring a constituent industry in the face. As much as we want it to be a silver bullet, the WTO is still a long run bet. Something has to give, but Bush can stall it the rest of his term I am afraid. The Senate only ratifies treaties, and we are already in the WTO. It is out of their hands now, enforcement or bringing us inline with a treaty is an executive matter.
The other problem is the Senate Finance Committee itself, where this has to originate. Kyl is on it. Trent Lott is as well, and Kyl and Lott are soulmates. Jim Bunning would [censored] his pants if the Senate endorsed sports betting online, and he is on it as well. I don't know Max Baucus very well, he is the chairman, but Rockerfeller is on the Finance committee. I think Schumer is the most recognizable Senator in the majority on the committee. What I have heard from him on gambling isn't good, and if the banks are lobbying, he should be a target for them. OUr only hope form the Senate is in a conference committee with the House, and then a fast vote on a must pass. Kyl can block anything else in committee, well before a floor vote. When I think of pleasant thoughts of things to come, I like to think of Kyl seeing a net gaming regulation provision in a conference committee(he would be on it as he is 3 or 4 in the Rep Caucus), that he is powerless to stop.

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

[ QUOTE ]
The Senate only ratifies treaties, and we are already in the WTO. It is out of their hands now, enforcement or bringing us inline with a treaty is an executive matter.

[/ QUOTE ]


lurker,

You are taking my post too far, as I certainly don't mean to suggest a resolution as necessarily leading to any concrete legislation on the WTO. Regarding your quote above, I realize it is up to the administration to comply with treaties. But it is certainly within the province and duties of the senate to express its concerns and desires regarding same. All I am proposing is a way to bring the WTO issue to the forefront in order to get more recognition of the entire gambling issue and efforts in the house. And a sense of the senate resolution might be a way to do that, especially as senators don't have to commit at that point to concrete ways to comply.

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

There is a general meeting on July 24th. If the US doesn't contest Antigua's claim, it will be taken as written. But of course they will contest it.

They will seat a panel and set a briefing schedule. Briefs will most likely be filed in September. I expect that panel will rule on the amount and type of sanctions before the end of the year.

I am sure the US may also try to argue they are no longer subject to the remedies since they are withdrawing their commitment.

The US will be left with three choices. Offer Antiguan gaming companies unfetted access, face the sanctions and the wrath of the IP interests, or compromise in good faith and make a bilateral agreement with Antigua.

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

Jay,

In line with my suggestion in my earlier post, I think that the perfect content of such a sense of the senate resolution would be which of those 3 options that the senate believes the administration should take.

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

Sense of the Senate or Sense of the House resolutions are not easy to get.

Hopefully there are some more letters from Congress to the USTR in the works. Here's the last one written back in March. Please send this letter to your Congress people and ask them to send something similar to the USTR.

http://www.antiguawto.com/LettertoUSTR.pdf

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

Jay, could the panel rule that the US has withdrawn its commitment and award Antiqua some form of compensation, due to the withdrawal but not the original case, which is different than the IP compensation?

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

Well if the panel rules that withdrawal of the commitment is an acceptable form of compliance, Antigua would be asking for the same type of compensation, IP, only for a lifetime. The value of the withdrawal is theoretically greater than the value of the past plus ongoing damages.

I don't know about the other countries that have filed, but I think that any panel, whether it is the remedy panel or the panel that rules on what just compensation would be against the withdrawal of the commitment, would be very sympathetic to Antigua's claims.

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

Here is a rough draft of a letter I plan on sending to my US reps and the US trade rep.

The Honorable Susan Schwab
United States Trade Representative
600 17th Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20508

Dear Ambassador Schwab:

I am writing concerning the decision by the WTO on the case brought by Antigua and Barbuda against the United States entitled: “Measure Affecting the Cross-Border Supply of Gambling and Better Services” (WT/DS285). The WTO Appellate Body has found that the U.S. is not in compliance with its WTO obligations with respect to the provision of remote gambling services. Antigua, Costa Rica and the European Union are seeking or planning to seek billions in compensation. My understanding is Antigua has asked the trade body to target American Trademarks and Copyrights if the U.S. refuses to comply.

Besides facing sanctions, failure to comply with the WTO ruling will ruin our credibility around the world. If we refuse to comply, we are setting an example for every other country to follow. When we seek to press countries like China regarding their violations on a wide range of important issues including copyright violations, how can we expect them to comply if we do not lead by example and abide by the rulings of the WTO?

The best type of leadership is done by those who lead by example. I hope the United States steps up and abides by the ruling of the World Trade Organization regarding remote gaming.

Sincerely,

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

Jay,

In this NYT story on the issue, note the following quote from the USTR:

"Gretchen Hamel, a spokeswoman for the United States trade representative in Washington, said that the office would continue to try to find a mutually satisfactory resolution to the dispute."

Now of course that is BS, as from what I have read of the issue, including your postings here, the US hasn't in fact tried to compromise. Of course it may now, but there is no "continue" because they haven't been trying in the past.

You have posted in the past that the US has 3 options to comply:

1) allow Antigua based companies total access the US remote gaming market;

2) outlaw all domestic remote gaming;

3) negotiate a bi-lateral treaty.


Now #3 basically seems like #1. If it isn't the same, then what difference would there be exactly? And wouldn't it mean also that any other country, even though they didn't join Antigua's case directly, could initiate their own case before the WTO and demand similar treatment? Which again means not just #1, but a super #1 where all foreign companies have access.

What I am saying is that I don't see a negotiated resolution of the situation that basically doesn't involve just wholesale repeal of not only the IUGEA but also the Wire Act as it pertains to foreign companies at least. Or do you envision some other type of trade concessions being given while Antiguan companies still can't access the US remote gaming market?

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

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2) outlaw all domestic remote gaming;



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Does intrastate only remote gambling still qualify as domestic remote gambling (the type to get the U.S. in trouble)?

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

autobet,

For the purposes of the WTO on this issue, it doesn't distinguish between intra-state and inter-state within the U.S. So that means that if Nevada allows phone wagering only by its residents in-state, then that still violates WTO rulings. Although it makes a difference to us here because we have a strong federal system, the WTO again doesn't make that dinstinction unless there is a specific exception made by treaty which there are in some small cases, mostly it seems having to do with dependancies of EU countries or small autonomous regions of various countries.

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

you forgot option number 4: Negotiate a limited agreement, perhaps allowing poker / card games only and regulate them as other 'SKILL' card games are already.

see worldwinner.com, AOL Games, MSN Games & YAHOO! Games for cash based 'SKILL' card games.

This seems a likely outcome if any real negotiated deal is made.

obg


[ QUOTE ]
Jay,

In this NYT story on the issue, note the following quote from the USTR:

"Gretchen Hamel, a spokeswoman for the United States trade representative in Washington, said that the office would continue to try to find a mutually satisfactory resolution to the dispute."

Now of course that is BS, as from what I have read of the issue, including your postings here, the US hasn't in fact tried to compromise. Of course it may now, but there is no "continue" because they haven't been trying in the past.

You have posted in the past that the US has 3 options to comply:

1) allow Antigua based companies total access the US remote gaming market;

2) outlaw all domestic remote gaming;

3) negotiate a bi-lateral treaty.


Now #3 basically seems like #1. If it isn't the same, then what difference would there be exactly? And wouldn't it mean also that any other country, even though they didn't join Antigua's case directly, could initiate their own case before the WTO and demand similar treatment? Which again means not just #1, but a super #1 where all foreign companies have access.

What I am saying is that I don't see a negotiated resolution of the situation that basically doesn't involve just wholesale repeal of not only the IUGEA but also the Wire Act as it pertains to foreign companies at least. Or do you envision some other type of trade concessions being given while Antiguan companies still can't access the US remote gaming market?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

[ QUOTE ]
To be honest I am surprised that the WTO issue is taken seriously by an important senator. But since it obviously is in view of the possible ramifications for future US interests in the WTO, not to mention possible sanctions, then I would propose that lobbyists for the PPA and ourselves seek to leverage that concern in the following manner.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be precise, the meeting (see letter) was with a representative.

The interest they have at this stage is two fold:
1. What is in it for WV - JOBS as a proposal.
2. What harm will come to WV if the ruling and sanctions are placed? This I have to finalize for them and will post as a follow up to the letter.

One is Japan - steel industry dumping case can be reversed hurting our steel industry.

I need more though and am reading the various WTO cases involving the U S and the filing countries to see what other possible ramifications to WV will be.

I would suggest the same for everyone, find out what damage directly the filing countries can have reversed or modified in their favor V. the U S in your state.

obg

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

I mailed letters to my U.S. Senators and Susan Schwab. I also emailed a copy of my letter with a suggestion they email their memberships requesting they send similar letters to the PPA, Full Tilt, Stars, Party and Card Player Mag.

Senator Barbara Boxer
1700 Montgomery Street
Suite 240
San Francisco, CA 94111

Dear Senator Boxer:

I am writing concerning the decision by the WTO on the case brought by Antigua and Barbuda against the United States entitled: “Measure Affecting the Cross-Border Supply of Gambling and Better Services” (WT/DS285). The WTO Appellate Body has found that the U.S. is not in compliance with its WTO obligations with respect to the provision of remote gambling services. Antigua, Costa Rica and the European Union are seeking or planning to seek billions in compensation. My understanding is Antigua has asked the trade body to target American Trademarks and Copyrights if the U.S. refuses to comply.

Besides facing sanctions, failure to comply with the WTO ruling will ruin our credibility around the world. If we refuse to comply, we are setting an example for every other country to follow. When we seek to press countries like China regarding their violations on a wide range of important issues including copyright violations, how can we expect them to comply if we do not lead by example and abide by the rulings of the WTO?

The best type of leadership is done by those who lead by example. I hope the United States steps up and abides by the ruling of the World Trade Organization regarding remote gaming.

Sincerely,

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

Boxer couldn't care less.

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

[ QUOTE ]
Boxer couldn't care less.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't matter. We still have to write to let her know that voters care about the issue.

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

[ QUOTE ]
you forgot option number 4: Negotiate a limited agreement, perhaps allowing poker / card games only and regulate them as other 'SKILL' card games are already.

see worldwinner.com, AOL Games, MSN Games & YAHOO! Games for cash based 'SKILL' card games.

This seems a likely outcome if any real negotiated deal is made.

obg


[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't think that's on the table. You seem to be hooked on this "skill" games concept because that's what you enjoy and that's what you think would be the most palatable to Congress. But that's not where Antigua's interests are.

I can't think of one major poker site that is licensed in Antigua or employs people in Antigua. Antigua's online gaming community is made up of sportsbooks and casinos. They are the ones who have supported the country's efforts for the past four years, not poker companies from far away lands.

If the decision means anything, why would Antigua negotiate away their primary business? They won the case for full access, they are in the driver's seat.

Now if you want to say the US doesn't care what the WTO says, then why would the US do anything? Either the decision means something or it doesn't.

I am hopeful that there will be a negotiated settlement. But it's not going to be about giving in to the US's artificial distinctions between types of gaming. Sports, poker, and blackjack all involve an element of skill and an element of luck. We can argue all night the percentages of each.

If it's about skill, then let me know when the US is eliminating scratchers and slots. I can't figure out the skill required for either of those games.

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jay,

In this NYT story on the issue, note the following quote from the USTR:

"Gretchen Hamel, a spokeswoman for the United States trade representative in Washington, said that the office would continue to try to find a mutually satisfactory resolution to the dispute."

Now of course that is BS, as from what I have read of the issue, including your postings here, the US hasn't in fact tried to compromise. Of course it may now, but there is no "continue" because they haven't been trying in the past.

You have posted in the past that the US has 3 options to comply:

1) allow Antigua based companies total access the US remote gaming market;

2) outlaw all domestic remote gaming;

3) negotiate a bi-lateral treaty.


Now #3 basically seems like #1. If it isn't the same, then what difference would there be exactly? And wouldn't it mean also that any other country, even though they didn't join Antigua's case directly, could initiate their own case before the WTO and demand similar treatment? Which again means not just #1, but a super #1 where all foreign companies have access.

What I am saying is that I don't see a negotiated resolution of the situation that basically doesn't involve just wholesale repeal of not only the IUGEA but also the Wire Act as it pertains to foreign companies at least. Or do you envision some other type of trade concessions being given while Antiguan companies still can't access the US remote gaming market?

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot has to do with how many other countries let the US give up their commitment in the sector, either for nothing or for something. We'll know more about who put in claims on Monday.

Remember, the UIGEA makes nothing legal or illegal that wasn't the same status the day before. It just adds criminal liabilities to the banks.

Again, without going into details, I can see a fair settlement that would make everyone happy, except the anti-gambling zealots.

And yes, they are full of it when they talk about continiuing the negotiations.

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Boxer couldn't care less.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't matter. We still have to write to let her know that voters care about the issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

and Feinstein is worse...she is one of the leaders in the Internet safety/regulation club.

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

Jay, do you have a complete list of who all signed up Friday?
I can't find one online yet.

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

[ QUOTE ]
autobet,

For the purposes of the WTO on this issue, it doesn't distinguish between intra-state and inter-state within the U.S. So that means that if Nevada allows phone wagering only by its residents in-state, then that still violates WTO rulings. Although it makes a difference to us here because we have a strong federal system, the WTO again doesn't make that dinstinction unless there is a specific exception made by treaty which there are in some small cases, mostly it seems having to do with dependancies of EU countries or small autonomous regions of various countries.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, Inta-state is the same as Inter-state for the WTO. Logically it has to be. USA preventing access or just the states stopping international access has the same result. The WTO commitment is a federal one and the WTO applies it to all the states.

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jay, do you have a complete list of who all signed up Friday?
I can't find one online yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't even know if there is a requirement for them to make it public.

But, we should know the entire cast of characters by Monday.

I heard a rumor, but I have not confirmed that Macau has filed. Don't ask me how they are separate from China but they have their own entry as a member of the WTO.

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

Macao is in a 50 year handover phase between Portugal and China. I think it started in the 80s, but I thought the EU controlled their foreign trade.

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

I just got a list. Hasn't been confirmed yet.

Antigua
EU
Japan
India
Costa Rica
Macau
Canada
Australia

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

Canada is big, all estimates were they would not file trying to coddle up.

obg


[ QUOTE ]
I just got a list. Hasn't been confirmed yet.

Antigua
EU
Japan
India
Costa Rica
Macau
Canada
Australia

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

What happened to Brazil?

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

If my info is right, I guess they didn't file.

The press mixes things up all of the time. Brazil made a speech at the last hearing favorable to Antigua, but it seems that's as far as it went.

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

Now that we know which countries have filed, what is the next step in all of this? The July 24th hearing?

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

I am pretty sure July 24th is just the next general meeting for the WTO. It relates to Antigua's filing for remedies. The US has to contest it by then or it will be adopted.

The other countries claims were due by June 22. Now the US has 3 months to negotiate with each of them or go to arbitration.

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

Now I am hearing add Brazil. Again, none of this is confirmed.

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

I can't see how the addition of Brazil really matters. Either the Bush Administration gives up and permits most online gaming or the WTO will be rendered meaningless.
Unfortunately, I am afraid that the Bush Administration will choose the latter option. Thus, I am hoping that the court in the iMEGA case grants the relief requested and injoins the enforcement of the Wire Act and the UIGEA against internet gaming.

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

Most of the other countries, including the EU, are not seeking market access for online gaming. They are just trying to get compensated for a commitment the US has made in their schedule and now wants to change. They see some money on the table and they want to get some of it.

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

Very true, but the pressure for unfavorable concessions by the US that will hurt US companies adds a new deminsion that Senators and Congress folks will take a lot of heat over at home.

Should help Antigua.

PS, more legal / illegal U S Sports gaming info coming soon.

May help the case to show how widespread football pools (even free) when cash is awarded by a large U S media outlet company including INTERSTATE contests.

obg


[ QUOTE ]
Most of the other countries, including the EU, are not seeking market access for online gaming. They are just trying to get compensated for a commitment the US has made in their schedule and now wants to change. They see some money on the table and they want to get some of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can't see how the addition of Brazil really matters. Either the Bush Administration gives up and permits most online gaming or the WTO will be rendered meaningless.
Unfortunately, I am afraid that the Bush Administration will choose the latter option. Thus, I am hoping that the court in the iMEGA case grants the relief requested and injoins the enforcement of the Wire Act and the UIGEA against internet gaming.

[/ QUOTE ]

After the EU, Brazil is the most important. Red state senators become our friends. I can tell you with almost 100% certainty Brazil will seek compensation in the ethanol market. Sugar based ehtanol is effective, efficient, and cheap. Every corn farmer in america could end up on our side.

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

http://www.gambling911.com/Australia...te-062607.html

They are claiming there are 7 seeking compensation, but their source doesn't sound totally legit, but they have Australia and Macao on it, with Japan just sending a nasty letter. Fits in with Jay's list, though I really am disappointed in Japan and Brazil.

Re: Suggested plan to leverage the WTO issue in the senate
 

This article http://www.majorwager.com/frontline-521.html seems to have a more definitive list with Japan but not Brazil.