Superuser at betfair [modnote: seemingly trojan horse related]
 

Hi

Did a search and didnt find any post on this subject. Apperantly there has been a huge security glitch at betfair. A pokerplayer using the nick 'vali' has been able to see his opponents hole cards, thus winning alot of money at highstakes HU matches. Betfair has compensated the loosing players in exchange for them keeping quite on the subject.

Links:

http://www.highstakesdb.com/forum/Topic134606-27-1.aspx

Translation from norwegian blog:
http://www.pokergoo.com/no/blog/view...sp?blogid=1794

Rigged
Played h2h with a donk and ran sick [bad]. I could not understand how it was possible that such a bad player could win against me and everybody else. The answer came yesterday. The [censored] could see his opponents cards. Fortunatly the site discovered this and everybody who busted against him got their money refunded. I hope there will be more information about this available on the net. A bit 'nasty' playing highstakes when there is a possibility that your opponent can see your cards.

Firt comment: For thoose who are interested, this is 'vali' at betfair we are talking about.

Translation from other norwegian blog:
http://www.root.no/blog/2007/10/stor...re-pokersider/

Big scam at betfair and other poker sites.
If you are playing highstakes at pokertables theese days you should watch out. A player we have talked to told us that he just received $38.000 from betfair after he got scammed by a player who saw his cards.

According to the rumors, we are talking about somebody with the nick vali. A search on the web shows that also other people has observed this aswell [links to the two pages above].

The highstakes poker community is pretty tight, and people generally know who is playing where. Our man om the inside tells us that some people suddenly started playing against everybody and winning every session.

Players who has lost against such people have gotten theire money back from betfair (which, for one player, apperantly is about $500.000).

Some of the players that have been scammed are certain that they did not download any new software from betfair (ie. trojans), but that there has to be some kind of security glitch in betfairs systems that can be exploited to see the opponents hole cards.

On the other hand, one of the persons we have talked to has reiceved an obvious scam from betfair-updates.com in the form of the following email apperantly from info@betfair.com:


Dear member!

THIS IS AN AUTOMATED EMAIL - PLEASE DO NOT REPLY.

To provide our customers the most effective and secure online poker, we are continually upgrading our software. As we add new features and enhancements to our service, there are certain computer systems such as Windows 98,XP,2000 and Vista which will not support these upgrades.

If you are using one of the following Windows System Operation(Windows 98,XP,2000,Vista) please follow this link to download and install the critical security upgrade.

Crictial Security Update Url:

__]http://betfair-updates.com/__[removed.exe]__

Failure to do so will cause problems with your Betfair Poker Client.

Thank you for your cooperation in this matter and we apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.

Betfair Security Team

The conclusion is that you should be aware if you are laying highstakes poker theese days, and never download any software linked to you in an email.

The poker software will automaticly update itself, so there should be no reason to click on a link in an email.

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

what

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

If this is all true......

Note to AP: Watch what happens to Betfair and compare it to what happened to you. They admitted the problem and compensated all injured parties (probably out of their own pocket), and released a security update to fix the loophole. People will still trust in Betfair, perhaps even more after this...... compare and contrast.

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

[ QUOTE ]
what

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

dean, are those links safe to click on?

(these posts always look like spam to me [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] )

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

They seem fine.

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

a warning to all:


don't d/l updates that may be posted in this thread/emailed to you.

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

wtf kind of poker room sends updates through e-mail?

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Betfair has compensated the loosing players in exchange for them keeping quite on the subject.


[/ QUOTE ]

So did they take the money and tell everyone? Or did they take the money, stay quiet, and did someone else tell about it?

Re: Superuser at betfair. *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by sixfour

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

[ QUOTE ]
wtf kind of poker room sends updates through e-mail?

[/ QUOTE ]

They don't. That's why it's an "obvious" scam.

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

There was an obvious hacking attempt directed at players (see email), but:

"Some of the players that have been scammed are certain that they did not download any new software from betfair (ie. trojans), but that there has to be some kind of security glitch in betfairs systems that can be exploited to see the opponents hole cards."

There's no evidence of a security problem with the client/server beyond the players' claims AFAICT, nor is there any explanation in the provided links of the money awarded as compensation. One anonymous source appears in a blog post.

There may or may not be something shady going on, but it's impossible to tell from this post.

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

R u serious?

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

Seriously? if so....after 2 years of playing with no problems and then all of sudden 2 in a month?

Ugh.

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

[ QUOTE ]
R u serious?

[/ QUOTE ]

OP isn't easy on the eye, post now deleted

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

Not sure if this is related, but a friend of mine who plays 5/10-25/50 on Betfair got an email a few weeks ago from Betfair support saying something to the effect of they had caught someone cheating, and they were returning funds to all players who lost money to that player. He got a credit in his account for a little over $1500 IIRC. The email didn't say what sort of cheating or who is was. During the same time period I had been playing Betfair 5/10 religiously and got no such email or credit, so I'm assuming this happened at 10/20+, most likely 25/50.

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

wtf is going on?

Pretty soon were gonna start hearing how BODOG'S random card generator isn't so random.

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

Wow, can't believe this was kept so hush, fair play to Betfair for taking the most decent course of action. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

Woaah. Remember that guy on Party Poker who a bunch of people thought could see their cards? PlayerLogin I think. Maybe these type of things have been going on for a long time but only now people are realising. I wonder if PlayerLogin was a low number account to..

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

If you talking about the Party fiasco ages ago it was due to a rouge out-sourced programmer implementing a Trojan in a 'rakeback calculator' meaning he could only see infected opponents cards, so targeted them one at a time at party.

These last two cases (betfair and AP) are more worrying as they're not due to a user's computer being infected.

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

fwiw full tilt is rigged

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

Im new to the forums but have been playing online poker for about 6 years - and after all the recent events at AP and now possably Betfair i often wonder about those games where the worst opponent making the worst calls (but always has a better holding than you, and NEVER puts his money in from behind, ever) Cleaning up.

REALLY makes me wonder...

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

gg poker

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

[ QUOTE ]
These last two cases (betfair and AP) are more worrying as they're not due to a user's computer being infected.

[/ QUOTE ]

it looks like betfair's is. people who say they didn't download anything when there *is* a hack going around always wind up having downloaded just one thing. it's like a murphy's law for computer illiterates.

edit: btw, one other explanation, if sufficient people were trojaned but some lost money legitimately (in non-HU games), is that the hacker was using multiple trojaned accounts to collude at HSNL.

either way, looks like betfair *has* a security department.

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Im new to the forums but have been playing online poker for about 6 years - and after all the recent events at AP and now possably Betfair i often wonder about those games where the worst opponent making the worst calls (but always has a better holding than you, and NEVER puts his money in from behind, ever) Cleaning up.

REALLY makes me wonder...

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly! How many times have you been playing at a table when one person comes along that cannot lose? No matter what you do, they seem to know everything. Every time you try a bluff they "know" you have nothing so re-raise. Every time you catch a hand, they "know" you have something and fold. All this without ever seeing the white of your eyes.

I'm talking random strangers too. Not someone you have played several times before.

I've seen this happen multiple times at multiple sites. Having read the AP superuser threads, I'm convinced this is exactly what was happening.

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

I'm a regular at the forum of the first blog, and can ask the guy to give some more detailed info here (for example regarding whether or not he downloaded the trojan).

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im new to the forums but have been playing online poker for about 6 years - and after all the recent events at AP and now possably Betfair i often wonder about those games where the worst opponent making the worst calls (but always has a better holding than you, and NEVER puts his money in from behind, ever) Cleaning up.

REALLY makes me wonder...

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly! How many times have you been playing at a table when one person comes along that cannot lose? No matter what you do, they seem to know everything. Every time you try a bluff they "know" you have nothing so re-raise. Every time you catch a hand, they "know" you have something and fold. All this without ever seeing the white of your eyes.

I'm talking random strangers too. Not someone you have played several times before.

I've seen this happen multiple times at multiple sites. Having read the AP superuser threads, I'm convinced this is exactly what was happening.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is in NO WAY an insult, since I have no idea, but what stakes do you play?

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

[ QUOTE ]

Exactly! How many times have you been playing at a table when one person comes along that cannot lose? No matter what you do, they seem to know everything. Every time you try a bluff they "know" you have nothing so re-raise. Every time you catch a hand, they "know" you have something and fold. All this without ever seeing the white of your eyes.

I'm talking random strangers too. Not someone you have played several times before.

I've seen this happen multiple times at multiple sites. Having read the AP superuser threads, I'm convinced this is exactly what was happening.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now let us not get carried away. Stick to what can be proven. As Adanthar noted, the occurence of a superuser that can see everyone's hole cards without the use of a trojan, is still only isolated to AP, and there' not really any reason to conclude that online poker is rigged yet [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

I played against a guy the other day who called everytime i bet, raised every time i bluffed. Id never played him before and was playing well reading what i could and folding when he pushed.

The final straw was after i raised with pocket tens and the flop came T 2 T (quads) I bet exactly the same i had been betting previously and he just folded... no raise, no call, no nothing.

This was totally against the way he had been playing for the last half hour.

I left the room.

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

winning player obv

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

[ QUOTE ]
winning player obv

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok just assume that he had no read whatsoever on me (as we only played half hour together) and ive been playing well.

And yeah of course its not concrete evidence, never said it was! Just pointing out that in light of recent events, it just makes you think..

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

FWIW, I sent a PM to the blogger at Pokergoo and asked if he could let us know exactly what happened at Betfair. Hopefully we'll get a clarification from him.

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

What did you want him to do, pop you with 78?

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Exactly! How many times have you been playing at a table when one person comes along that cannot lose? No matter what you do, they seem to know everything. Every time you try a bluff they "know" you have nothing so re-raise. Every time you catch a hand, they "know" you have something and fold. All this without ever seeing the white of your eyes.

I'm talking random strangers too. Not someone you have played several times before.

I've seen this happen multiple times at multiple sites. Having read the AP superuser threads, I'm convinced this is exactly what was happening.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now let us not get carried away. Stick to what can be proven. As Adanthar noted, the occurence of a superuser that can see everyone's hole cards without the use of a trojan, is still only isolated to AP, and there' not really any reason to conclude that online poker is rigged yet [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I'm not claiming to be a great poker player, never have. I can hold my own at 5/10 NL cash games and have occasionally played 10/20 NL games. I now prefer 5/10 max online, simply because of my past experiences.

However, I'm not stupid either. I've been a software developer for 10 years. The point I was trying to make in my original post was that Admin/SuperUser accounts exist on all sites, not just AP. It's also a fact that people must have access to these accounts to test the software. How many people can honestly say if they had access to such accounts they wouldn't be tempted to use them to make a lot of extra money?

Occassionaly, I've experienced play that could only be explained by someone using such an account. At the time I suspected collusion but it just seemed too exact to be collusion.

Also, POTRIPPER would never have been caught had it not been for someone sending the wrong hand histories. He didn't even cheat particularly well, playing nearly every hand, never folding to a bluff, etc and he would still never have been exposed. Even "Potroast" who played against him in that tournament said he looked like a maniac who was trying to run over the table (it's in the AP thread).

If I were a clever scammer and had access to the SuperUser account, I'd stay well clear of the big games. It's too small a community, where a lot of them know each other. Instead, I'd target the mid-range games where I could still make plenty. And I'd cheat a lot better than POTRIPPER. What are the chances of ever being caught using such tactics? I'd estimate they are close to zero.

I know this is starting to sound like an "All online poker is rigged" rant. It's not meant to be and I don't believe it is. However, the SuperUser account genie is out of the bottle and can never be put back in. I'm sure I'm not the only one that suspects they may have been a victim of this.

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

Last year Jonny Lodden Was cheated and he was bleaming it all on Fast Freddie on prima. He told that he had plant some virus in his computer..can this be like that story? He lost like the biggest pot online..

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

I have been saying for sometime that online poker is being ruined enough by things such as poker tracker. Playing betfair myself from $100-$200 I make very good money as people will who know me will know. Sometimes when playing a bad player at these stakes then seeing them move up to $750-$1000 i insta sit as I know I have a huge edge over them. Quite often the location of the player is Italy and when you move up you lose every game. The exact extent of the cheating if any who knows. On a seperate but related matter playing a bad player yesterday and here are a few hand histories, my calls are not those I would make against a regular player however he was so bad I was willing to take the chance....

***** Betfair Poker Hand History for Game 264143035 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $300 Buy-in + $15 Entry Fee, Level:1 Blinds(10/20-(no ante)) - Thursday, October 18, 04:06:20 GMT 2007
$300+$15 NL Holdem #1184224
Table 1 2-max (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of active players : 2
Seat 1: (alias deleted) ( 1,330 )
Seat 2: Mr Silent ( 1,670 )
Tourney Level:1 Blinds(10/20-(no ante))
Mr Silent posts small blind [10]
(alias deleted) posts big blind [20]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Mr Silent [ Ks, Ah ]
Mr Silent raises to [60]
(alias deleted) raises to [180]
Mr Silent goes all-in
Mr Silent raises to [1,670]
(alias deleted) calls [1,150]
(alias deleted) goes all-in
Returning uncalled bet [340] to Mr Silent
** Showdown **
(alias deleted) shows [ 6d, Td ]
Mr Silent shows [ Ks, Ah ]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kh, Th, 6h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qs ]
** Dealing River ** [ 9c ]
** Hand Conclusion **
(alias deleted) wins 2,660 from main pot with two pair, Tens and Sixes

***** Betfair Poker Hand History for Game 264141758 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $200 Buy-in + $8 Entry Fee, Level:1 Blinds(10/20-(no ante)) - Thursday, October 18, 03:41:17 GMT 2007
$200+$8 NL Holdem #1184219
Table 1 2-max (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of active players : 2
Seat 1: Mr Silent ( 1,680 )
Seat 2: (alias deleted) ( 1,320 )
Tourney Level:1 Blinds(10/20-(no ante))
Mr Silent posts small blind [10]
(alias deleted) posts big blind [20]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Mr Silent [ Qc, Ad ]
Mr Silent raises to [60]
(alias deleted) raises to [100]
Mr Silent goes all-in
Mr Silent raises to [1,680]
(alias deleted) calls [1,220]
(alias deleted) goes all-in
Returning uncalled bet [360] to Mr Silent
** Showdown **
Mr Silent shows [ Qc, Ad ]
(alias deleted) shows [ Jc, 7c ]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ac, Jd, 9h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2c ]
** Dealing River ** [ Jh ]
** Hand Conclusion **
(alias deleted) wins 2,640 from main pot with three of a kind, Jacks
************ Game 264141758 ends ************

Just a few of the kinds of hands these crazy italians play against us, I have a few more but can't be bothered to trawl through thousands of HH. Somewhere on my blog I said poker has difficult times ahead, it may have been this post:

http://punterzpoker.blogspot.com/200...er-online.html

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

oh no you lost two consecutive 60/40's

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

lool omg pokerz is the rigged u were such a favorite this is impossible!!!

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

wtf is this

Re: Superuser at betfair.
 

you know, this thread had a legitimate-ish start, but since I can tell what it's going to degenerate into I'm closing it now.

feel free to repost it in a few days when the influx dies down.