2/4 Didnt want to make 2 pair here
 

Villain is LanderD, pretty aggro pre and post. thoughts on all streets appreciated.

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $2/$4 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $427.10
BB: $705.20
UTG: $573.40
Hero (MP): $560.25
CO: $189.95
BTN: $402.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $16.00</font>, CO folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $52.00</font>, 2 folds, Hero calls $36.00

Flop: ($110) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($110) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BTN bets $78.00</font>, Hero:?

Re: 2/4 Didnt want to make 2 pair here
 

i'm honestly not buying that villain has a hand

Re: 2/4 Didnt want to make 2 pair here
 

only possible good holding really is KQ

Re: 2/4 Didnt want to make 2 pair here
 

[ QUOTE ]
only possible good holding really is KQ

[/ QUOTE ]

Why can't he have AK, T9s etc.?

Re: 2/4 Didnt want to make 2 pair here
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
only possible good holding really is KQ

[/ QUOTE ]

Why can't he have AK, T9s etc.?

[/ QUOTE ]

AK will bet the flop most of the time, i beat T9s

Re: 2/4 Didnt want to make 2 pair here
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
only possible good holding really is KQ

[/ QUOTE ]

Why can't he have AK, T9s etc.?

[/ QUOTE ]

AK will bet the flop most of the time, i beat T9s

[/ QUOTE ]

Doh, i was actually thinking about 89s instead of T9s but guess he would betting the flop with that too..

Re: 2/4 Didnt want to make 2 pair here
 

bet the flop, you have TPTK on a drawy board.

on the turn, what about raising? i am kind of lost what to do here too...any suggestions?

Re: 2/4 Didnt want to make 2 pair here
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villain is LanderD, pretty aggro pre and post. thoughts on all streets appreciated.

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $2/$4 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $427.10
BB: $705.20
UTG: $573.40
Hero (MP): $560.25
CO: $189.95
BTN: $402.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $16.00</font>, CO folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $52.00</font>, 2 folds, Hero calls $36.00

Flop: ($110) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($110) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BTN bets $78.00</font>, Hero:?

[/ QUOTE ]

youd think he'd bet Kx on the flop, no? ace is obviously a good scare card because his most likely hand is absoltuely nothing.

call and check the river, time to be a hero!

Re: 2/4 Didnt want to make 2 pair here
 

I started a similar thread a day or two ago in mid-stakes dealing with exactly these sorts of situations, but it didn't get much love. Too bad because I think playing these spots OOP leave you with no good options. c/c, c/f? c/c, c/c? Both of those seem really bad to me. The advice I received from the one poster who responded was to play it has if you had the stronger hand (in this case the K) on the turn, then c/f river because he will not have called turn without a hand at least as good as you, and he won't turn any made hands into bluffs by betting.

Re: 2/4 Didnt want to make 2 pair here
 

You say he's pretty aggro pre and postflop. If you've got a tight image, I'd reckon he'd 3-bet a wide range in position to isolate you, then bet any scare card after a weak turn like that.

If I'm suitably rolled and the read is good, I'll play the variance game with him and hope I'm not the sucker this time. He could easily have AT-AK, 9T, TJ, JQ with your read and that play. Call and donk value bet the river.

Re: 2/4 Didnt want to make 2 pair here
 

u beat all 2 pairs too btw. i call and donk teh river

Re: 2/4 Didnt want to make 2 pair here
 

[ QUOTE ]
bet the flop, you have TPTK on a drawy board.

on the turn, what about raising? i am kind of lost what to do here too...any suggestions?

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting the flop here into the PFRR sucks because he will often bluff raise and it will be hard to continue. Raising his turn bet here is terrible. I agree with bobbo and ikestoys on this, I'm not buying that he has a K, I call turn here and check river and see what happens. I don't think he checks AK or KK on this flop. He could have KQ/KJ here I suppose, maybe a KK that was gun shy on the flop but I still think that's unlikely.

Re: 2/4 Didnt want to make 2 pair here
 

[ QUOTE ]
u beat all 2 pairs too btw. i call and donk teh river

[/ QUOTE ]

unless you are donking to induce a raise... wtf

Re: 2/4 Didnt want to make 2 pair here
 

c/c c/c against him. I think he's going to think you have [censored] and two barrel air/low pp and there's not much value you'll get out of AT/AJ.

Re: 2/4 Didnt want to make 2 pair here
 

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $2/$4 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $427.10
BB: $705.20
UTG: $573.40
Hero (MP): $560.25
CO: $189.95
BTN: $402.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $16.00</font>, CO folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $52.00</font>, 2 folds, Hero calls $36.00

Flop: ($110) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($110) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BTN bets $78.00</font>, Hero calls $78.00

River: ($266) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BTN bets $205.00</font>, Hero:?

Re: 2/4 Didnt want to make 2 pair here
 

He's either got a king here or air, I think that's pretty clear. I don't think he's checking the flop with a set. Maaaybe he's checking with 2 pair, but that doesn't matter cause you beat that. Would he really check KQ here? I guess you can worry about KJ and K10 (depending on how loose he 3 bets), but I probably station this and check/call, check/call. I can't really imagine folding the river if you call the turn cause he's probably thinking that you aren't just calling the turn with a king so if he's going to bluff, he'll do it on 2 streets.

Re: 2/4 Didnt want to make 2 pair here
 

Do you all think there is any way he checks the river with anything after the turn action? Generally I hate making generalized statements like "if you have to call the turn you need to call the river", but I think it's pretty applicable here...

Re: 2/4 Didnt want to make 2 pair here
 

[ QUOTE ]

youd think he'd bet Kx on the flop, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

if i rr you here with K5s, i wouldnt bet this flop for fear of being raised. I would take the free card all day.

...that said, i check behind more flop than most people so that might not be the best play for him.

but i still dont think he should bet this flop with Kx.

Re: 2/4 Didnt want to make 2 pair here
 

I like your play this far. Difficult spot on river. But if he is a bit aggro and tricky I will call. I also depend my decission on timing and feel.

Re: 2/4 Didnt want to make 2 pair here
 

this thread is painful to read

he would bet the flop with any K? orly? pretty much any K he could have gives him a pair also which puts him in a "way ahead or slightly behind" spot where he's rarely getting action from the stuff he's way ahead of. or maybe he has the straight on the flop, some ppl will check that, who knows if this is one of those guys

so then the argument is, well, if he has like K4 here, then he'd bet the flop... and the simultaneous argument is that he checked the flop with total air (76s?) but is now betting the turn with it... if this flop is too scary for him to bet with total air, then why does he have to bet it with just a naked king?

pretty much all of the rest of the stuff in his range like Axs etc have showdown value and are just going to try to get a cheap showdown, or stuff like a set is just going to bet the flop (or go for a cheap showdown once the turn hits if they were getting tricky)

and then there are people that want to start betting at all streets and [censored]... with a [censored] bluffcatcher

so in conclusion, WTF

Re: 2/4 Didnt want to make 2 pair here
 

[ QUOTE ]
this thread is painful to read

he would bet the flop with any K? orly? pretty much any K he could have gives him a pair also which puts him in a "way ahead or slightly behind" spot where he's rarely getting action from the stuff he's way ahead of. or maybe he has the straight on the flop, some ppl will check that, who knows if this is one of those guys

so then the argument is, well, if he has like K4 here, then he'd bet the flop... and the simultaneous argument is that he checked the flop with total air (76s?) but is now betting the turn with it... if this flop is too scary for him to bet with total air, then why does he have to bet it with just a naked king?

pretty much all of the rest of the stuff in his range like Axs etc have showdown value and are just going to try to get a cheap showdown, or stuff like a set is just going to bet the flop (or go for a cheap showdown once the turn hits if they were getting tricky)

and then there are people that want to start betting at all streets and [censored]... with a [censored] bluffcatcher

so in conclusion, WTF

[/ QUOTE ]



nicely said.


basically the ranges are showdown hands that have improved to a straight (KQ, KJ, K10) and are now value betting. Or air (or 99 or 10,9 or something) that was rightfully concerned about the bad flop and is now representing the straight. how wide is his preflop hand range? how bluffy is he post flop? does he check behind hands with no showdown value? might he even bet KQ?


as a rule of thumb i'd like calling more the wider his preflop hand range is, the more it deviates from royal cards the better (many royal cards on the turn are value betting when better or checking for showdown when they're behind). Also, people never seem to give up after one barrel, so i suppose you have to call both the turn and river, if the turn that is.


maybe you could toss in some fake stopping bets? if alot of his range after the flop check doesnt include a king then doing all you can to make him bet with the rest of his range might be a good idea. you could instacheck too if you intend to call, it may make him bet his kings weaker and bluffs stronger.

Re: 2/4 Didnt want to make 2 pair here
 

what king could he have here? unless he check behind ak on flop for some reason?