Not looking good but the pot is huge
 

Full Tilt Poker $15/$30 Limit Hold'em - 6 players

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#FF0000">MP raises</font>, CO folds, Button folds, <font color="#FF0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB folds, MP calls.

Flop: (7.00 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#FF0000">Hero bets</font>, MP calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#FF0000">Hero bets</font>, MP calls.

River: (6.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#FF0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#FF0000">MP raises</font>, <font color="#FF0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#FF0000">MP caps!</font>, Hero ...

So now the pot is huge, im getting like 12-1... firstly

river three bet.. good bad? seems kinda standard to me but there are arguments for not doing it.

call or fold now?

villain is ontilt34... i dont really have any reads on him, seems semi competent though

Re: Not looking good but the pot is huge
 

u can only call here if villain is a huge tard who could be really excited about his aq or kk. nobody is ever bluffing here.

its ok to fold hands

Re: Not looking good but the pot is huge
 

Call because he isn't representing anything that beats you. If he shows QJ, QQ, A5, 56 I figure I would have lost the same if he played it better so its ok to pay off [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey

Re: Not looking good but the pot is huge
 

This looks like QJ. I don't think you're ever going to see QQ here, because if he gets 3bet with QQ and just calls down on J hi flops he's el terible. This could be a terribly played JJ. Either way you look at it, his only realistic hand that beats you is QJ, and this can be AQ enough of the time that you can pay off. If he has a hand other than QJ that beats you, then he played it terribly, and terrible players deserve a little extra action because they are $$ in screenname form.

I know it's annoying not to get in more bets with a big hand like AA, but I'm not 3betting this river in most games and if I get shown a hand I'm beating I adjust my play for the future. I don't like putting in excessive action against unknowns and I think that's what the river 3bet is. Hope this is somewhat helpful.

Re: Not looking good but the pot is huge
 

How unusual is it to not raise on the flop or the turn with TP given preflop action?

It certainly looks like AQ before he caps.

Re: Not looking good but the pot is huge
 

You played it well. Never fold.

Re: Not looking good but the pot is huge
 

I only raise this river if I can fold to a cap. I cannot fold to a cap (although it's probably correct) in this situation so I just call the river raise.

Re: Not looking good but the pot is huge
 

ive never won in this spot. up until a couple months ago i would also say ive never folded either but i have folded a couple times now. not to say that i would do it here but its probably correct.

fwiw im guessing he had QJ and was going to raise you on the river no matter what and pay off your 3bet. unfortunately the Q came.

Re: Not looking good but the pot is huge
 

The thing that troubles me most about this entire pot is that his hand makes absolutely ZERO sense. WTF is he repping? QQ? so hard to believe...

Re: Not looking good but the pot is huge
 

ya the problem is when was the last time a seemingly competent (more specifically, someone that we have not clearly identified as retarded) person capped the river with something worse than our hand in this spot?

Re: Not looking good but the pot is huge
 

ya exactly, its so sick (IMO)

i mean how do we not 3 bet in this spot, but how do we call a 4 bet?

Re: Not looking good but the pot is huge
 

[ QUOTE ]
fwiw im guessing he had QJ and was going to raise you on the river no matter what and pay off your 3bet. unfortunately the Q came.

[/ QUOTE ]
doubt this.

hopp - just justify it like this. 3-bet/call cap is better than just calling his river raise. if you are a player who loves to play in a way that usually avoids the time when you give your opponent the chance to put in that one bet that makes you cringe, you should feel happy about that justification. this would then be a time where you are okay with allowing him to make that extra raise. sorry if this is unclear.

Re: Not looking good but the pot is huge
 

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I only raise this river if I can fold to a cap. I cannot fold to a cap (although it's probably correct) in this situation so I just call the river raise.

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I agree that we probably lose in this situation, but the weird play + odds we are getting + metagame=call.

Re: Not looking good but the pot is huge
 

Am i weak tight if i never 3bet this river?

Re: Not looking good but the pot is huge
 

yes..

i would call the cap here when im playing meh
i would fold when im playing my A game

Re: Not looking good but the pot is huge
 

its pretty bizarre how ppl are inventing reasons for calling this cap, but usually not because "i have the best hand 8% of the time"

Re: Not looking good but the pot is huge
 

[ QUOTE ]
Full Tilt Poker $15/$30 Limit Hold'em - 6 players

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#FF0000">MP raises</font>, CO folds, Button folds, <font color="#FF0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB folds, MP calls.

Flop: (7.00 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#FF0000">Hero bets</font>, MP calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#FF0000">Hero bets</font>, MP calls.

River: (6.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#FF0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#FF0000">MP raises</font>, <font color="#FF0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#FF0000">MP caps!</font>, Hero ...

So now the pot is huge, im getting like 12-1... firstly

river three bet.. good bad? seems kinda standard to me but there are arguments for not doing it.

call or fold now?

villain is ontilt34... i dont really have any reads on him, seems semi competent though

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unless you have a history of 3bet-bluffing rivers, why would you 3bet here? What can he pay you with that you beat?

Re: Not looking good but the pot is huge
 

This guy should be showing up here with worse one pair hands more often than he should be showing up w/ a set or QJ. He should have AQ here alot and with the pf action being
somewhat undefined villain has no reason to think that he isnt ahead of Hoppscot's range. I really cant think of any other hand that even makes sense unless villain decided to slowplay a set to the river, which seems kind of silly with a flush and wheel draw present on the turn.

Unless we know for sure whether he is capable of raise folding top pair on the river then we really need to make this 3bet.

Re: Not looking good but the pot is huge
 

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unless you have a history of 3bet-bluffing rivers, why would you 3bet here? What can he pay you with that you beat?

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youve gotta be joking bob

Re: Not looking good but the pot is huge
 

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unless you have a history of 3bet-bluffing rivers, why would you 3bet here? What can he pay you with that you beat?

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youve gotta be joking bob

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well then it is an easy river fold, isn't it?

Re: Not looking good but the pot is huge
 

*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to LIVELETDIE22 [9s 6h]
JOWI - Folds
PLAYWTHTARDS - Raises $45 to $60
LIVELETDIE22 - Calls $30
*** FLOP *** [9d 9h 5s]
PLAYWTHTARDS - Checks
LIVELETDIE22 - Bets $30
PLAYWTHTARDS - Calls $30
*** TURN *** [9d 9h 5s] [6s]
PLAYWTHTARDS - Bets $60
LIVELETDIE22 - Raises $120 to $120
PLAYWTHTARDS - Raises $120 to $180
LIVELETDIE22 - Raises $120 to $240
PLAYWTHTARDS - Calls $60
*** RIVER *** [9d 9h 5s 6s] [Qd]
PLAYWTHTARDS - Checks
LIVELETDIE22 - Bets $60
PLAYWTHTARDS - Calls $60
*** SHOW DOWN ***
LIVELETDIE22 - Shows [9s 6h] (Full house, nines full of sixes)
PLAYWTHTARDS - Mucks [8 8]
LIVELETDIE22 Collects $778 from main pot

that seems like a pretty easy fold too, but he still called...

though you might think calling with any hand worse then AA is dumb the majority of people arent that smart

Re: Not looking good but the pot is huge
 

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PLAYWTHTARDS is so bad it hurts

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Re: Not looking good but the pot is huge
 

[ QUOTE ]
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to LIVELETDIE22 [9s 6h]
JOWI - Folds
PLAYWTHTARDS - Raises $45 to $60
LIVELETDIE22 - Calls $30
*** FLOP *** [9d 9h 5s]
PLAYWTHTARDS - Checks
LIVELETDIE22 - Bets $30
PLAYWTHTARDS - Calls $30
*** TURN *** [9d 9h 5s] [6s]
PLAYWTHTARDS - Bets $60
LIVELETDIE22 - Raises $120 to $120
PLAYWTHTARDS - Raises $120 to $180
LIVELETDIE22 - Raises $120 to $240
PLAYWTHTARDS - Calls $60
*** RIVER *** [9d 9h 5s 6s] [Qd]
PLAYWTHTARDS - Checks
LIVELETDIE22 - Bets $60
PLAYWTHTARDS - Calls $60
*** SHOW DOWN ***
LIVELETDIE22 - Shows [9s 6h] (Full house, nines full of sixes)
PLAYWTHTARDS - Mucks [8 8]
LIVELETDIE22 Collects $778 from main pot

that seems like a pretty easy fold too, but he still called...

though you might think calling with any hand worse then AA is dumb the majority of people arent that smart

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i think we both agree that we don't want to fold, but against a relative unknown i'd like to see his cards for 2 river bets, not 3 or potentially 4.