WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

They doubled chip stack but they also made blinds bigger and moved up faster. Based on the 1500 buyin NLH tournament, Using Synder's Patience Calculator...i got

14.06 for 2006.
14.93 for 2007. (blinded off in 3.86 hours)

They basically combined the 25-25 and 25-50 level in 2006 and combined them into one 25-50 level in 2007. They then shifted all the blind levels up.

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

This means antes come into play faster and stealing the blinds in the first level is less worth it. Seems fine to me. But people will be playing much looser since they will think they have bigger stacks. Sidebets on how everyone talks about how the stacks are 'twice as big' this year?

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

I was under assumption that They would keep same structures from last year with the doubled stack. If so....you would get...a patience factor of...

22.78. Which is approximately same as UPC, which i guess had a huge patience factor for a 600 dollar buyin.

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

How is the patience factor calculated? What is it exactly? Just how long it takes for you to be blinded off?

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

[ QUOTE ]
How is the patience factor calculated? What is it exactly? Just how long it takes for you to be blinded off?

[/ QUOTE ]

Patience factor is based on blind off time (it's actually blind off time squared). It's used to compare the speed of different structures. Snyder's book, "The Poker Tournament Formula," discusses it in detail. It also explains how to use it to determine other things such as the approximate playing time to reach the final table based on structure and field size. His web site has some explanation and lists patience factors for some tournaments for comparison. They also have a downloadable Excel spreadsheet for computing PF.

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

I would really like Alan Goehring's input here:

The WSOP main event structure will be different in 2007 - 20,000 in starting chips but as the OP says, blinds start at 50/100 instead of 25/50. Antes also start at a 50 ante instead of 25.

So what effect will these changes have on the event as compared to 2006? Is it worse, better, same, or just different?

thanks

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would really like Alan Goehring's input here:

The WSOP main event structure will be different in 2007 - 20,000 in starting chips but as the OP says, blinds start at 50/100 instead of 25/50. Antes also start at a 50 ante instead of 25.

So what effect will these changes have on the event as compared to 2006? Is it worse, better, same, or just different?

thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

The "quality" of the 2007 WSOP $10k NLH structure is almost identical to the 2006 version. I think the primary reason for going to $20k starting chips was to discourage "chip substitution" from prelim events, rather than seeking an improvement in the $10k event structure. (It would have been easy to improve the $10k event structure simply by keeping 150/300 and 250/500 levels).

Doubling starting chips in the prelim NLH events means the big blind repeats (i.e. 100/200 wo & w ante) at a greater chip depth, plus it will take approx. one extra level to eliminate 98% of the field, etc. It is now basically the Bellagio prelim event structure with an extra level (namely 150/300/25). The structure of the WSOP prelims have gone from being slighlty worse (2006) to marginally superior (2007)to the equiv. buy-in events at Bellagio.

The OP is right, the improvement is only marginal, but it is a step in the right direction.

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

Thank you Alan for the quick response. I may actually play a prelim event now.

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

I just wanna see how it all plays out.

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

Do any of you see this as the first step in raising the $10k buyin to $20k?

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do any of you see this as the first step in raising the $10k buyin to $20k?

[/ QUOTE ]

My personall opinion is yes, I think that will happen. Matter of fact, I think that's already been decided.

I'd lay someone 6-1 odds that that the ME in 2008 will in fact be at least $20,000.

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do any of you see this as the first step in raising the $10k buyin to $20k?

[/ QUOTE ]

My personall opinion is yes, I think that will happen. Matter of fact, I think that's already been decided.

I'd lay someone 6-1 odds that that the ME in 2008 will in fact be at least $20,000.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll bet. How much?

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd lay someone 6-1 odds that that the ME in 2008 will in fact be at least $20,000.

[/ QUOTE ]

Accepted. Any amount to $25k.

Bets to be posted and held in escrow?

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

nm

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do any of you see this as the first step in raising the $10k buyin to $20k?

[/ QUOTE ]

My personall opinion is yes, I think that will happen. Matter of fact, I think its already been decided

I'd lay someone 6-1 odds that that the ME in 2008 will in fact be at least $20,000.

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys really want action on this?

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

Holla, 2007 ME is already 20k. Its just the blind structure is 2x. Its essentially the same structure as last year but with different denominations. Sorta like a natural "inflation".

The ME is still a gret tournament....i think its like

40 on the patience scale. which is sorta "off the charts"

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do any of you see this as the first step in raising the $10k buyin to $20k?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope not due to Satellites will then demoralize the tournament( not enough $$$ cash for prize pool).


but Im thinking inthe near future yea it will go up [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The ME is still a gret tournament....i think its like 40 on the patience scale. which is sorta "off the charts"

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually 89.1 which is even farther off the charts. Past years (based on what was published in the PTF) was 75.24. Blind off time increased by about 45 minutes.

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Holla, 2007 ME is already 20k. Its just the blind structure is 2x. Its essentially the same structure as last year but with different denominations. Sorta like a natural "inflation".

The ME is still a gret tournament....i think its like

40 on the patience scale. which is sorta "off the charts"

[/ QUOTE ]

We are talking about the buy-in being $20k cash...not the starting chips.

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

oh ok...my bad.

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

Even though the blinds start twice as high, it's still advantageous to have 20k chips instead of 10k for the later levels, because although you cut out one level of play, for every other level, you have effectively put twice as many chips in play, meaning that M's will be a lot higher with blinds of 200/400, 300/600, etc than they would be if you only got 10k in chips. More play in the middle levels is a very good thing IMO.

Is this is a stage toward raising the buy-in to $20k? Eh, I don't think so. If anything it's probably just following the trend of the Bellagio structures and other similar WPT structures that have been recently adopted. All in all I think it's a very positive move... not as good as the 2007 Borgata Winter Open structure (30 chips, 25/50 starting blinds, wow), but definitely better the old structure and realistic given the expected size of the field this year.

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Even though the blinds start twice as high, it's still advantageous to have 20k chips instead of 10k for the later levels, because although you cut out one level of play, for every other level, you have effectively put twice as many chips in play, meaning that M's will be a lot higher with blinds of 200/400, 300/600, etc than they would be if you only got 10k in chips. More play in the middle levels is a very good thing IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everything in this post is wrong. More than one level was eliminated, there will not be more play in the middle levels, M's will not be higher (e.g. 2007 level #5 of 300/600 will have the same M as 2006 level #5 of 150/300).

I am using the 2007 $10k event structure posted on the WSOP website; it is basically the same as 2006 except everything is effectively doubled (level 1 x 2, level 2 x 2.....level 19 x 2, level 20 x 2, etc. etc. etc.).

The WPT events typically improved slightly when they went to 20k SC because they implemented (structured) things differently than the WSOP. The WPT events increased the number of levels (e.g. BB=SC) and had the BB repeat (i.e. first ante level) at a greater chip depth, while the WSOP has not changed the number of levels (or the ratio of the various levels, etc).

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Even though the blinds start twice as high, it's still advantageous to have 20k chips instead of 10k for the later levels, because although you cut out one level of play, for every other level, you have effectively put twice as many chips in play, meaning that M's will be a lot higher with blinds of 200/400, 300/600, etc than they would be if you only got 10k in chips. More play in the middle levels is a very good thing IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everything in this post is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

owned

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Even though the blinds start twice as high, it's still advantageous to have 20k chips instead of 10k for the later levels, because although you cut out one level of play, for every other level, you have effectively put twice as many chips in play, meaning that M's will be a lot higher with blinds of 200/400, 300/600, etc than they would be if you only got 10k in chips. More play in the middle levels is a very good thing IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everything in this post is wrong. More than one level was eliminated, there will not be more play in the middle levels, M's will not be higher (e.g. 2007 level #5 of 300/600 will have the same M as 2006 level #5 of 150/300).

I am using the 2007 $10k event structure posted on the WSOP website; it is basically the same as 2006 except everything is effectively doubled (level 1 x 2, level 2 x 2.....level 19 x 2, level 20 x 2, etc. etc. etc.).

The WPT events typically improved slightly when they went to 20k SC because they implemented (structured) things differently than the WSOP. The WPT events increased the number of levels (e.g. BB=SC) and had the BB repeat (i.e. first ante level) at a greater chip depth, while the WSOP has not changed the number of levels (or the ratio of the various levels, etc).

[/ QUOTE ]

Cost per round in 2006 (41 levels, assuming 9 handed tables):
75
150
300
525
675
1050
1200
1575
2100
3300
3600
4200
5700
6300
8100
10500
12000
18000
21000
24000
36000
42000
57000
72000
90000
105000
120000
180000
210000
240000
360000
420000
570000
720000
900000
1050000
1200000
1800000
2100000
2400000
3600000

Cost per round in 2007 (first 41 levels, assuming 9 handed tables):
150
300
600
1050
1575
2100
2400
3600
4200
5700
6300
8100
10500
12000
18000
21000
24000
36000
42000
57000
63000
81000
105000
120000
180000
210000
315000
420000
570000
630000
810000
1050000
1200000
1575000
2100000
2850000
3600000
4200000
5700000
7200000
8100000


Cost per round in 2007 divided by cost per round in 2006 for first 41 levels (2 means round cost was exactly doubled, < 2 means round is less costly in 2007 vs 2006, > 2 means round is more costly in 2007 vs 2006):
2
2
2
2
2.333333333
2
2
2.285714286
2
1.727272727
1.75
1.928571429
1.842105263
1.904761905
2.222222222
2
2
2
2
2.375
1.75
1.928571429
1.842105263
1.666666667
2
2
2.625
2.333333333
2.714285714
2.625
2.25
2.5
2.105263158
2.1875
2.333333333
2.714285714
3
2.333333333
2.714285714
3
2.25



Looks slightly better in some of the early-mid stages, and worse in the late stages.

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

I used the term "effectively" doubled and not "exactly" doubled as there are some very small differences. For example, 150/300/25 becomes 300/600/75 vs. 300/600/50, and 800/1600/200 becomes 1500/3000/400 vs. 1600/3200/400. The differences are so small that it doesn't make sense to spend a lot of time splitting hairs.

The biggest differnce is that level 27 (equiv.) has been removed in 2007 (i.e. oddly there is no 50k/100k, assuming no typo). So yes, 2007 has one less level, which will only be felt after 99.5% of the field is eliminated. This SMALL difference is greater than the rounding differences at various levels.

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I used the term "effectively" doubled and not "exactly" doubled as there are some very small differences. For example, 150/300/25 becomes 300/600/75 vs. 300/600/50, and 800/1600/200 becomes 1500/3000/400 vs. 1600/3200/400. The differences are so small that it doesn't make sense to spend a lot of time splitting hairs.

The biggest differnce is that level 27 (equiv.) has been removed in 2007 (i.e. oddly there is no 50k/100k, assuming no typo). So yes, 2007 has one less level, which will only be felt after 99.5% of the field is eliminated. This SMALL difference is greater than the rounding differences at various levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alan, the purpose of my post wasn't to nitpick your statement, but rather to back up what you had said about M's not being higher in 2007 than 2006.

2006 structure: http://www.worldseriesofpoker.com/st...t/Event39.html

2007 structure: http://dps.twiihosting.net/wsop/doc/...oc_591_133.pdf

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

LoL, I got pwned by Alan Goehring; there's a story... didn't realize they'd cut out other levels as well. In that case I withdraw my ignorant statement.

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

Anyone think one reason for the change is to keep total chip count high while entries will obv be down? Meaning that the spectators (I'm mostly talking about tv here) are not impressed with million-dollar stacks anymore, and might lose some interest if there aren't as many millions at the final table? That was my first thought, at least.

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

So, if you had to bet on the stack sizes at the final table in relation to the blinds being deeper than last year, would you?

Meaning how many BB deep will the avg stack be as opposed to how deep it was last year.

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

I don't think that's what he's trying to say, but it doesn't really matter. Assuming that the ME attendance declines greatly, as anticipated, the FT will still have the 80-90 mill. on the table....Hell, after chip-ups, who knows how high that number could get. That's assuming field debility to 4,200 entrants, though some believe it will stay much larger than that.

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the primary reason for going to $20k starting chips was to discourage "chip substitution" from prelim events, rather than seeking an improvement in the $10k event structure.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've seen a report that a unique chipset will be used for the main event this year. So then the only reason would be to have a uniform chips/$ ratio for all the events.

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

yeah, i had been wondering what the biggest chip in play this year would be. will we finally get a 500k chip or somesuch?

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

[ QUOTE ]


2006 structure: http://www.worldseriesofpoker.com/st...t/Event39.html

2007 structure: http://dps.twiihosting.net/wsop/doc/...oc_591_133.pdf

[/ QUOTE ]

First link is dead, google cached version here.

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, i had been wondering what the biggest chip in play this year would be. will we finally get a 500k chip or somesuch?

[/ QUOTE ]


some of the chip-towers that players had to build recently just look ridiculous imo.

I guess having players with monster towers makes it more visually appealing on television somehow in a "wow, he's got all those chips" kind of way.
But to me it just looks silly and cumbersome.

I half-think they would consider using $25 chips only and just have tables so full of chips that they wouldn't have room for cards in the middle.

Re: WSOP blind structure is only marginally better.
 

oversized novelty 5 million chip for incoming final table chipleader, please. frisbee size would be best.