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- Medium Stakes Limit (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=55)

- - Wierdos (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=554085)

So my only real achilles heals lately are my own self induced tilt, and wierdos. No one can help me with #1. #2...I dunno.

By wierdo, I mean players who take totally random lines at random points in time. Its like they actually read all the prerequisite poker books, and perhaps even this forum. And then someone electrocuted them to ensure that they could not possibly utilize the concepts they read in any kind of useful manner. Its a combination of FPS, and total lack of awareness of what is really going on. These guys persistently take suboptimal lines, but they are so random that it often causes me to play suboptimally as well.

So villian in this hand is just bizarre. He seems to be playing perfect 2+2 mid stakes poker. He doesn't chop, which is uncommon at Commerce $20-40. Everyone chops. Even the very good players. The only ones that don't chop are anti-social nits who complain when a player asks for a chip back to a pf heads up raise. But villian is playing aggressive good in the blinds when folded to late position. 3 betting with a very healthy range. But then he goes and does something retarded like limping in the HJ with Q4s. And cold calling lots of raises. And looking tilted every time he does not win a pot. Like I said, wierd. He is folding a ton of hands pf, and a ton on the river, but very few in between. Several hands where I have seen him fold the river make no sense whatsoever. He also has been paying off very obvious hands that clearly have one pair totally demolished. He has no concept of what other players might be holding. One hand he bet top pair with KJ on a J1098 board and called the raise(to be shown the very obvious straight).

So onto the hand....I open raise Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] MP2. Loose passive behind me calls, button calls, and villian calls in sb. Flop is K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Check to me, I bet. LP calls, button folds, villian c/r. I call, LP calls. Turn is A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Villian bets....

Is it ever correct to raise this card? I know raising with a strong draw isn't the best play in the world, and we don't want to pay double or triple for our draw. Also, do we really want to lose LP here?

Yeah I'd raise that card, he seems like a mix between a pay off wizard and a spazz and a TAG, plus he respects your game and the pot is big enough to try this, plus you have solid equity to the nuts not to mention the potential to get 2+ bets in on the river.

I'd fold PF in most games, and almost certainly with Cali rake

HU i might raise this
but here i call and look for the overcall from LP

brian

When playing against someone who folds the river too much and in odd situations, it's gotta be +EV to build pots on the turn with big semi-bluffs (like this).

I feel the pressure you put on the LP player by raising has also got to be good, because its very easy here for him to make a big mistake with a better hand. Finally in the worst case where LP calls and the wierdo 3-bets your draw equity is far from catastrophic, you have to have at least 10 outs.

Also, I was not the villain in this hand but the description is similar to the image I work to project at the Commerce 20/40 - hyper-aggressive, extremely confusing to play against, and impossible to bluff.

It works because passive players get annoyed at you and start ceding pots without a fight, and aggressive players get annoyed at you and start playing much worse hands to get back at you. And solid players pick you apart hand by hand. Therefore, for it to work well, you need a table of mostly suckers and very few solid, patient players.

Some thoughts:

-You can get help from others with your "own self induced tilt." Yes, the buck stops with you, but there are people around who can help make you tiltless, or at least less prone to tilt.

-If someone is playing "suboptimally" it shouldn't result in you to play "suboptimally." That is, if we define a suboptimal player as someone who loses because they don't play well, you should be getting a portion of his losings. I understand that a player who limps in with every hand is impossible to read, because he might have anything. But the -EV of playing every hand would far outweigh the fact that he could hold anything since GIGO is an eternal truth in limit hold'em.

As for this hand, I would not have bet the flop. You're up against multiple opponents, one of whom is a kind of wild card who could certainly check-raise here.

On the turn, raising when picking up a flush draw is old news. It doesn't work nearly as much as it did several years ago. Plus you're up against an opponent who doesn't fold very much on the turn. I can't really see winning this pot against these two unless you end up with the best hand.

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He seems to be playing perfect 2+2 mid stakes poker. He doesn't chop, which is uncommon at Commerce $20-40. Everyone chops. Even the very good players. The only ones that don't chop are anti-social nits

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With the rake at Commerce, I wouldn't call someone who doesn't chop a nit. To the contrary, I'd call them a gambler. The amount of superiority over your opponent you have to have in order for blind vs blind 20/40 play to be profitable is unreal. I always chop in raked games, never chop in time charge games.

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He seems to be playing perfect 2+2 mid stakes poker. He doesn't chop, which is uncommon at Commerce $20-40. Everyone chops. Even the very good players. The only ones that don't chop are anti-social nits

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With the rake at Commerce, I wouldn't call someone who doesn't chop a nit. To the contrary, I'd call them a gambler. The amount of superiority over your opponent you have to have in order for blind vs blind 20/40 play to be profitable is unreal. I always chop in raked games, never chop in time charge games.

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Ok how did you calculate this? I think if you are in the BB, and the SB is pretty weak, then you can make money off them pretty easily.

The only thing is that you will have a disadvantage vs almost anyone in the sb vs the BB and you don't want to look like a scumbag only chopping one and not the other.

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He seems to be playing perfect 2+2 mid stakes poker. He doesn't chop, which is uncommon at Commerce $20-40. Everyone chops. Even the very good players. The only ones that don't chop are anti-social nits

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With the rake at Commerce, I wouldn't call someone who doesn't chop a nit. To the contrary, I'd call them a gambler. The amount of superiority over your opponent you have to have in order for blind vs blind 20/40 play to be profitable is unreal. I always chop in raked games, never chop in time charge games.

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Ok how did you calculate this? I think if you are in the BB, and the SB is pretty weak, then you can make money off them pretty easily.

The only thing is that you will have a disadvantage vs almost anyone in the sb vs the BB and you don't want to look like a scumbag only chopping one and not the other.

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I doesn't take much calculation. The house rakes $5, you tip a dollar. If both just call you are betting $20 to win $14. If there is a raise you are betting $40 to win $34. This is a bad deal in either case. Don't confuse winning frequently with coming out ahead.

At 40/80 it is not that bad, but still questionable. Not chopping is mainly for the big ego, not the big winner, in raked games.

And of course I'm talking about the average of the two blinds. Anybody in the big blind who would chip with you, knowing that you don't chop with the SB, would be a fool.