Two Plus Two Newer Archives

Two Plus Two Newer Archives (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/index.php)
-   Science, Math, and Philosophy (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=49)
-   -   Quick question for pro life people. (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=540750)

wtfsvi 11-07-2007 07:05 PM

Quick question for pro life people.
 
Pro life is a little exotic to me, because it's not a view I ever encounter in real life. I'm obviously pro-choice, but I don't have the agenda of entering a flame war with this. I'm sorry if this has been discussed before, it seems like the abortion issue has been talked to death around here.

Should a pregnant woman be allowed to kill herself? (If you don't think anyone should be allowed to kill themselves, pregnant or not, you are crazy, but at least specify that when you say no then. "No. But I am crazy.")

Sephus 11-07-2007 07:14 PM

Re: Quick question for pro life people.
 
i think most people who are pro life would say "no, but i am crazy."

some people would say no one with dependents, including a pregnant mother, should be allowed to kill herself.

a few would say that only pregnant mothers should not be allowed to kill themselves.

and a few would say that everyone should be allowed to kill him or herself.

Phil153 11-07-2007 07:21 PM

Re: Quick question for pro life people.
 
I'm pro choice because I don't consider the fetus (or a lower level tard, for that matter) to be human.

That said, I don't think anyone should be allowed to kill themselves, with few exceptions.

My justification for suicide prevention is that the vast majority of suicides, if given a clear mind or eternity to think about the choice, would not choose to kill themselves. The desire for life is powerful but it can be clouded by negative emotions and mental illness. I don't think anyone would have a problem from preventing a schizophrenic from cutting themselves repeatedly because they believe there are demons inside trying to get out, and in the same sense, people who no longer wish to live are usually confused and detached from the world. The finality of suicide gives the right to intervene, in my opinion.

KikoSanchez 11-07-2007 07:23 PM

Re: Quick question for pro life people.
 
Kant, according to this, would have to say "no, but I am crazy."
But Kant was a genius, not crazy.
Ergo, you do not have to be crazy to believe in such a proposition.


Honestly though, Kant was a total institutional douchebag.

I think there is a distinction to be made though. Is it moral for a parent with dependents to kill themself? Some MAY disagree on this. But whether or not they should 'be allowed' on a legal level, I think there is no question that they have this freedom to do so and to punish people for attempting to kill themselves would be an extravagant overstep of state functionality.

tame_deuces 11-07-2007 07:23 PM

Re: Quick question for pro life people.
 

What Phil said. And very many suicides are based on simple irregularities in the brain causing depressions and this can be cured. I don't find trying to stop this forcefully much different from forcefully stopping a blind person from walking off a tall cliff.

wtfsvi 11-07-2007 07:30 PM

Re: Quick question for pro life people.
 
I had no idea so many non-religious people held the crazy position on this. I guess even more religious people will, then, so sephus is probably right.

KikoSanchez 11-07-2007 07:40 PM

Re: Quick question for pro life people.
 
I have been pro-choice in my past, but I am beginning to think differently about third trimester abortions. Largely my reason for being pro-choice I built off of Peter Singer's reasoning for vegetarianism. Beings with interests should have said interests respected. Now, a 3-week old ball of goo has no interests to avoid pain, death, et cetera. On the other hand, what is the interest-based difference between an 8-month old 'fetus' and a 8 and half month old born child? It seems there is little difference and if I am to be intellectually honest, it seems I should be against such late abortions.

hitch1978 11-07-2007 07:40 PM

Re: Quick question for pro life people.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I had no idea so many non-religious people held the crazy position on this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Best of luck defending your position.

Looking at the team sheets, my money is on the opposition.

tame_deuces 11-07-2007 08:02 PM

Re: Quick question for pro life people.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I had no idea so many non-religious people held the crazy position on this. I guess even more religious people will, then, so sephus is probably right.

[/ QUOTE ]



Its a catch-22, that's all.

The majority of people who kill themselves are suffering from depression. Most depressions are simply a physical malfunction of certain chemical inhibitors and receptors in the brain and their function.

So we can agree that rationally thinking people should of course be allowed to kill themselves. But its rare that wanting to kill yourself when otherwise healthy is a rational choice. Mostly it is a sign of strong depression. So there is your catch-22.

wtfsvi 11-07-2007 08:03 PM

Re: Quick question for pro life people.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I had no idea so many non-religious people held the crazy position on this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Best of luck defending your position.

Looking at the team sheets, my money is on the opposition.

[/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure if there is much point to defending it. They think someone should be prohibited from making his own decisions about himself/his own body when they feel they have good reason to believe that he is about to make a mistake that can't be corrected later. It's a way to look at people and autonomy that I don't agree with, and I think it's a dangerous slippery slope. But I don't expect to convince anyone, so I left it at calling them crazy.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:12 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.