what do artists get out of creating art
 

suppose someone has a great story or a great painting inside of them. getting it out could take years of torment, failure and misery.

if the effort worth it?

what the artist gains:

1. financial gain (sometimes)
2. respect from peers, fame (sometimes)
3. self satisfaction with his creation/achievement

I'm concerned with #3. Do we have any artists on record saying whether all their pain was worth it? Are artists victims who were cursed with a capacity for greatness and realizing this felt a responsibility to sacrifice their blood and sweet?

If a director watches his film 500 times to make sure its perfect, aren't we the viewer who sits down relaxingly to watch it getting more out of it than he does?

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...e/CastFire.jpg

They get to say, "Look what I created!!!"

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

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If a director watches his film 500 times to make sure its perfect, aren't we the viewer who sits down relaxingly to watch it getting more out of it than he does?

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no. the viewer puts less into it and that is where the inequity is not that the viewer get more out of it. as a casual filmmaker/musician/painter/writer i can say from experience that i get way more out of my creations than anyone else ever will or can, but it does come at a cost of much effort.

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

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If a director watches his film 500 times to make sure its perfect, aren't we the viewer who sits down relaxingly to watch it getting more out of it than he does?

[/ QUOTE ]
An NFL player works out 6 days a week, maintains a strict diet, and puts in extra work with a specialty coach...For all his hard work, we get to see him break the single season TD record and be the Super Bowl MVP. More enjoyable for us, or for him?

Effort!=lack of enjoyment.

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

An artist, no matter, does what they do because that is what makes them happy. There is no way that a person who is not passionate can appreciate the work, thinking, and history that went into a painting, movie, or a plate of fine food.

An artist MUST be an artist. An artist is miserable in the world they presently live in. Creating makes him or her happy, and working on a painting sounds way more enjoyable than serving tables, no matter who you are.

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

daveT what is that based on? I'm not a big expert on artists but get the impression a lot of them aren't very happy. I think creating is something they HAVE to do, not something they intellectually decide to do because it makes them happy. The doing it because that is just what they naturally do - well happiness or unhappiness could result just as easily.

Lebowski - some guy named "thebruiser500" who seems really really smart and a great person started this very related thread http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rt=all&vc=1

Lebowski - what prompts you to ask this question?

IMO creating things is a lot about vanity. Wanting to show the world how great you are, or maybe trying to show yourself you can do it.

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

As a kafka fan, you should have a special insight into this one. Op mentioned financial gain as one of the motivating factors for expression, but it was less a factor for many greats, such as Kafka, than others would assume. Kafka recieved no payment for his work, and did not pursue fame as a matter of course. His work was done at night, after regular working hours, and it was done as he said to soothe an ache. On the other hand, Nabakov mentioned his singular cause when writing a book was to bring it to an end as quickly as possible, as if expression itself were painful.

There are alot of people who function largely, and naturally, upon emotion. Music, imagery, and all the other multivarious forms of art allow us to speak in terms that can only be felt, and to say the things which can in no other way be communicated. The value of expression for those who are more centered on how they feel is pervasive; for the apathetic, clear eyed middle ager; not so much. For the young and the emotionally predisposed, poets can be teachers, the most meaningful ones that can be found. artists deal in an ineffable product of unknown origins, that in some unclear way accesses the most precious vault; the reservior of human feelings. There is significant evidence that depressive mindsets produce artistic responses of higher quality and frequency, especially with manic depressives during an manic session. Tchaikovsky was bipolar, and his periods of production exactly coincide with manic episodes, and the same is true for a suprising number of artists, especially poets.


Cam

"Poetry is not entertainment, it is escape"
Robert Lowell

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

hm liked your first paragraph you kind of lost me on a lot of the 2nd one though. i'll also add that i don't see how money could possibly play a main role in creating something of real value. it's easy to just look at poker players and see who is motivated by a competitive desire to be the best and who is motivated by a desire to win money and see how both those groups turn out.

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

i just play music but the creative process is awesome, it feels awesome. you should read On Writing by steven king, he talks a lot about how great it feels to write stuff. a form of art is like a life pursuit and as you do it, you are thinking like 'wow i am improving, i am expressing my thoughts using the medium of my art'. seriously owns.

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

My second paragraph was a confused jumble of three different thoughts, that may be why it was lost on you.

Bipolar artists tend to be productive during manic episodes, in some cases these periods were the only productive ones. For these individuals, meaning those of a depressive demeanor, art is a tangible attempt to express and in that way assuage the pain brought by emotional problems. If you feel bad, and see the world through a putrid filter, without apparent reason and in defiance of your self-control, it is natural to do anything one can to change it.
Art accesses our feelings in a way nothing else can; the hues of an artists' product irradiate themselves over their entire lives, to magnificent artistic effect. Artists are emotional as a species, and in that way expression is their tool to fight back. How could an emotional being effect a positive change with no nonsense prosaic arguments? Logic does not attend feelings, and so argument is of no value.

I know for myself that a genuine delight in the growth of my skill is a major factor in pushing me to create, and aside from that to fill a need, a need that is FELT, not understood. It is therefore proper to service this need with an activity of EMOTIONAL value, regardless of it's intellectual elements.

Cam

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

I second what Cam has written, and would like to add a simple summation:

Artists get relief from creation. Putting their troubles in a tangible form largely removes the sting of those troubles and gives clarity to the situation. I'm not sure how good of an artist I am, but when I create something, I feel similar to the way I feel after I've just vomited.

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

I create because to not create would mean death.

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

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I procreate because to not procreate would mean death.

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Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

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i just play music but the creative process is awesome, it feels awesome. you should read On Writing by steven king, he talks a lot about how great it feels to write stuff. a form of art is like a life pursuit and as you do it, you are thinking like 'wow i am improving, i am expressing my thoughts using the medium of my art'. seriously owns.

[/ QUOTE ]

There aren't a lot of people who don't enjoy money and at least on some level the recognition and approval by peers and "civilians" who are not necessarily their peers when it comes to work in some particular art form or type of achievement. That said, someone who is not merely a craftsman toiling indifferently but competently at a grindstone to pay the bills is probably usually motivated by something more than the most obvious and tangible rewards. MagicNinja gets to the heart of it, I think.

The world stymies and stifles people as a matter of course. Many people find either talent or personal expression in others threatening and feel that it demeans them by comparison. It can upset the order of things that some would prefer. Art also is, for most people, difficult to create to their highest standards, and even besides approval, one's very best artistic expression is not necessarily likely to result in any other rewards.

Therefore, creating is inherently optimistic. While creating, for a while, no matter how painful, tiring, or self-excoriating, the artist becomes an optimist and bets on himself. He may feel himself a poor or indifferent gamble anywhere else in his life, but the creative act is at the very least a defiant thumbing of one's nose at real or imagined limitations and an assertion of one's full humanity and powers. No matter how tortuous the process, artistic creation holds the promise that one can bet on oneself and win. In both the process and its products, creation can buoy, heal, exalt, and even share the soul. No wonder then that it can demand and be given it willingly.

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

They get the smug satisfaction of knowing that they did something that you can't.

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

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I FYP because to not FYP would mean death.

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FYP

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

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They get the smug satisfaction of knowing that they did something that you can't.

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You don't have to be an artist to do that though. Most people can't even change the oil in their car, and most guys probably don't even know how to sew on a button. I've managed to do both, but there was little glory in it.

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

I think that there is something to the Bipolar argument. I am not bi-polar, but I go through huge arcs of emotions. My life, and especially my artistic motivation, is hugely effected by my moods. If I am feeling depressed, I cannot do anything but think on a base level.

Creation is a form of happiness. An addiction. A lifeblood. To create ideas is what makes the world move. The tension of not creating spawns the desire to create.

An artist gains stability. It is not a drive to be noticed, or to make money. To not create is succumbing to something you are not. An acceptance of futility and depression. A way to fight these moods is to focus on something you are passionate on. A depressed mood can sometimes be lifted by feeling the pencil, brush, or knife, in your hand.

I do not believe that a casual observer cannot truly comprehend the passion and work that goes into art the same way I cannot accept the complexity and full function of a corn-stalk. Yes, I can look at it's beauty, and appreciate the food, but a scientist can appreciate the work and function of the corn. A scientist can appreciate it's full growth. He is more likely to see it grow from seed to death. I only eat the corn. Although I appreciate it's taste, I am not able to appreciate it's very existence.

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

"Why can't a non-artist appreciate the work of art?"

If they could, this thread would not exist.

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

[ QUOTE ]
suppose someone has a great story or a great painting inside of them. getting it out could take years of torment, failure and misery.

if the effort worth it?

what the artist gains:

1. financial gain (sometimes)
2. respect from peers, fame (sometimes)
3. self satisfaction with his creation/achievement

I'm concerned with #3. Do we have any artists on record saying whether all their pain was worth it? Are artists victims who were cursed with a capacity for greatness and realizing this felt a responsibility to sacrifice their blood and sweet?

If a director watches his film 500 times to make sure its perfect, aren't we the viewer who sits down relaxingly to watch it getting more out of it than he does?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a great OP. Your concern with just #3 says a lot about you. With regard to 1 & 2, they can potentially prove unhealthy, fleeting and, in a lottery business, terminally absent. If asked, I think most artists, regardless of medium, would say that the work should be the reason that the artist pursues their craft. Good to dismiss 1 & 2 early and not risk being distracted off your path.

As far as #3, I think you have to confine the answer to generalities. I think most people who create something, tend to look upon their creations with critical eyes that see more of what is wrong, than what is right. Overall, I think this tends to leave the artist dissatisfied with their work and ultimately even their life.

As far as the act of creation, that, I think, is another story. In my opinion, during the act of creation, an artist pursuing their passion with total focus, concentration and devotion transcends their individual humanity. They are able to reach a place (sometimes painfully) where the rest of us can not travel and, through their work, “bring back” a physical representation of their experience. A tangible “proof” that can then be experienced and painlessly enjoyed by the those who are capable.

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

I only MSPaint for fame and satisfaction. I don't do it for the money at all.

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

I'm an artist, and a freelance graphic designer. I do work for financial gains, but mostly personal satisfaction, and because I'm creative. There really isn't a definite reason, other than simply enjoying to create things that stem from your ideas.

Not to mention, creating things that you personally think are cool, is cool. You're showing off your talents, and creativity.

It's like a mathematician solving problems for fun...

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

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I only MSPaint for fame and satisfaction. I don't do it for the money at all.

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I've seen your mspaints and it's only a matter of time before the money follows the fame and satisfaction, imo.

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

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If I am feeling depressed, I cannot do anything but think on a base level.


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This is very much the case with me. If I am not functioning at what I consider my higher levels, I find I lose a lot of what I think of as my essential identity.

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My life, and especially my artistic motivation, is hugely effected by my moods.


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My artistic motivation isn't affected directly by my moods, but indirectly, because my work is darker when my mood isn't right and its marketability/general interest therefore plunges. It becomes "drawer art," just between me and the nightstand. At the same time I think it is often my better stuff and I feel more compelled to write it.

Still, a real artist, at least one who is a real enough artist to want to make a life of creating the art he loves and is willing to do whatever it takes to do so and bear the consequences, learns to work through all that and produce regardless. It's either that or get a regular job or have family money. I was like that when younger, for quite a while, and it was appallingly miserable and desperate. Then I got a regular job. So while art has been a passion and something I deeply admire and enjoy, I wouldn't call myself an artist. I'm not sure how willing I am to live without art, but I wasn't willing to die or live in eternal degraded misery for it. I'll simply say where my sympathies and empathies lie and what I enjoy most.

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

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Still, a real artist, at least one who is a real enough artist to want to make a life of creating the art he loves and is willing to do whatever it takes to do so and bear the consequences, learns to work through all that and produce regardless.

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for me, that's the hardest part


many have mentioned the idea that you create art because you have to create art. there isn't another option. otherwise, i'd be miserable. i couldn't even fathom it.


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If a director watches his film 500 times to make sure its perfect, aren't we the viewer who sits down relaxingly to watch it getting more out of it than he does?

[/ QUOTE ]

no. the viewer puts less into it and that is where the inequity is not that the viewer get more out of it. as a casual filmmaker/musician/painter/writer i can say from experience that i get way more out of my creations than anyone else ever will or can, but it does come at a cost of much effort.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, there's no way a casual viewer could ever get as much out of it as the artist could. there's just too much involved in the end product that the audience would never even be able to pick up on (partly, b/c a large chunk of the process never gets to the audience, but it's rewarding to the artist who's experienced it)

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

[ QUOTE ]
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Still, a real artist, at least one who is a real enough artist to want to make a life of creating the art he loves and is willing to do whatever it takes to do so and bear the consequences, learns to work through all that and produce regardless.

[/ QUOTE ]

for me, that's the hardest part


many have mentioned the idea that you create art because you have to create art. there isn't another option. otherwise, i'd be miserable. i couldn't even fathom it.


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If a director watches his film 500 times to make sure its perfect, aren't we the viewer who sits down relaxingly to watch it getting more out of it than he does?

[/ QUOTE ]

no. the viewer puts less into it and that is where the inequity is not that the viewer get more out of it. as a casual filmmaker/musician/painter/writer i can say from experience that i get way more out of my creations than anyone else ever will or can, but it does come at a cost of much effort.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, there's no way a casual viewer could ever get as much out of it as the artist could. there's just too much involved in the end product that the audience would never even be able to pick up on (partly, b/c a large chunk of the process never gets to the audience, but it's rewarding to the artist who's experienced it)

[/ QUOTE ]

It's funy, but one of the most enjoyable moments for me is when reads or watches something I've written and gives me an intepretation I hadn't even fathomed! It's quite startling.

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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Still, a real artist, at least one who is a real enough artist to want to make a life of creating the art he loves and is willing to do whatever it takes to do so and bear the consequences, learns to work through all that and produce regardless.

[/ QUOTE ]

for me, that's the hardest part


many have mentioned the idea that you create art because you have to create art. there isn't another option. otherwise, i'd be miserable. i couldn't even fathom it.


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If a director watches his film 500 times to make sure its perfect, aren't we the viewer who sits down relaxingly to watch it getting more out of it than he does?

[/ QUOTE ]

no. the viewer puts less into it and that is where the inequity is not that the viewer get more out of it. as a casual filmmaker/musician/painter/writer i can say from experience that i get way more out of my creations than anyone else ever will or can, but it does come at a cost of much effort.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, there's no way a casual viewer could ever get as much out of it as the artist could. there's just too much involved in the end product that the audience would never even be able to pick up on (partly, b/c a large chunk of the process never gets to the audience, but it's rewarding to the artist who's experienced it)

[/ QUOTE ]

It's funy, but one of the most enjoyable moments for me is when reads or watches something I've written and gives me an intepretation I hadn't even fathomed! It's quite startling.

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Letter I received in 2001:

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Dear Mr. Walton,

there are letters authors receive by their readers which are more rewarding than a positive review. They show how a perceptive reader can react to a book, and give the author a lot to think about what the book <u>says</u> (sometimes beyond the author's intentions of expectations). Let me thank you warmly,

Umbero Eco

[/ QUOTE ]

This letter really shocked me. Not least of all because, well, the man responded. But because of the idea that the person on the receiving end, the reader or viewer or listener, plays an active part.

Maybe it's the skeptic in me, but enough years of bad literature classes had be hating the question "what did the author mean?" But I suppose in the end, I believed that arists knew exactly what they meant in a piece of writing or painting or whatever.

And suddenly, in response to a long and rambling letter I wrote, here was this author I respected saying, essentially, "it's possible for a story to contain more than the creator realized."

Art, I think, is like that all the time. I create art for many reasons, but chief among them is to make a connection with other people.

Without going back and re-looking, I'll paraphrase. Someone here mentioned something about "real arists," and set that against people who would otherwise hang it up and get a "real job." To me, that's absolute crap.

A "real artist" is merely someone who makes something. If you make something and call it art, you'll never get an argument from me.

The two biggest reasons I have for creating, and I think this holds true for many artists: the act of creation, and the connections that creation helps to build. I love the works I make, but the end result for me is the moment when someone tells me how they felt about the work.

Yes, there are other reasons. Financial benefit is the one that hangs out there, that people mention often as some sort of test for being "real." I've sold a fair bit of work, but I build in very little profit. I've been determined for years to make sure my own work was not only something I wanted to set out into the world, but also something that anyone could own. My profit margins are tiny, for many reasons. I sell more work, which is satisfying beyond the financial aspect. But also, I feel like I'm helping to further art ownership.

Artists have done themselves a great disservice by building up a kind of intellectual-ist wall around what they do. Much like the elitism that wine as a product has to deal with, atrists have to cope with difficulties in opening new markets because "art" has a sort of aura around it that keeps people from buying it. "Is it good?" "What does it say about me?" "Is it worth buying?"

By making the work I sell, well, relatively cheap, I think I've managed to connect with many buyers who otherwise might not have bought "art." Which, in turn, probably opens them down the line to further purchasing.

My art is not my sole means of income, of course, so this is easier. Although at one point art was my primary means, or at least significant secondary, with poker, and so I think there's still weight behind this idea.

There's another thing I've toyed with: immortality. What will we leave beind? And making art, art which speaks to other people, ensures that I leave something when I'm gone.

I'm not yet sure how much that particular feeling drives me, but it is there.

Ultimately, I make art because I love creation and I love connecting with people. Immortality and financial gain are nice thoughts, but it's the connection to people I love.

The most successful and rewarding project I've taken on can be found here: www.mountpleasantproject.org

That was in 2005-06. I left my job, determined to make it six months to a year on savings, poker, grant money and art sales. Probably in that order. Art, that project, gave me a purpose that allowed me to take a leap I might never have otherwise.

I was lucky. Poker kept me afloat for a while. People responded to the work and bought prints. I felt like the images were connecting with people. After six months I took a job again, but even today I get emails from people who see the place they live or lived and who want to say Thanks.

What they get out of it is not always what I intended. But making those connections has been one of the most rewarding things I have ever done.

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

Interesting post. I think you misinterpreted what I said about what a real artist does. In fact you seem to repeat my own definition. I didn't set being a real artist against getting a "real job," as if the two were strictly opposite or art was not in itself work and an estimable sort of it at that. I even gave the example of Wallace Stevens, who held a job in insurance his whole life and was one of the major poets of his century.

A real artist has to sh*t or get off the pot, is what I meant. He has to work through whatever it is holding him back, and still produce. You can't be an artist theoretically; you must actually do the thing. And often on deadline. Otherwise you are at best artistic, not an artist. A cabinet or garage full of unfinished or unpolished projects, to me, does not signify an artist. It might signify an artistic temperament, but one with something vital missing. It might signify someone who is kidding himself or has an amusing hobby. Myself, I'm one or both of the latter. To me, a real artist, by contrast, by definition sees projects to completion.

The world is full of dabblers and daydreamers. I wouldn't go so far as to call them artists, and don't think that's any slight. Artists complete; dabblers and daydreamers need merely start.

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

At the risk of sounding glib:

To express the unexpressible
as best as I can.


I do kinetic dioramic art. When I begin a piece I realize immediately that I’ll never accomplish the goal of fully communicating the idea behind the piece. Because I myself am unaware of the true nature of my vision. I choose to express it best I can as a pseudo-exorcism of the “demon.” I don’t express by choice but by necessity.


edit: there's nothing "tortured" (I save this or my writing!) about this perspective. It's simply a matter of emptying a glass before it overflows of its own accord.

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

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The world is full of dabblers and daydreamers. I wouldn't go so far as to call them artists, and don't think that's any slight. Artists complete; dabblers and daydreamers need merely start.

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i like this. it's sort of a play on the idea that the hardest part of writing isn't the writing, but the re-writing (and the re-writing, and the re-writing, etc). there's a really great quote to that effect, but i can't remember what it is, exactly

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

"My writing becomes witty on the fifth draft."

--- I don't know who said it.

Re: what do artists get out of creating art
 

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[ QUOTE ]
The world is full of dabblers and daydreamers. I wouldn't go so far as to call them artists, and don't think that's any slight. Artists complete; dabblers and daydreamers need merely start.

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i like this. it's sort of a play on the idea that the hardest part of writing isn't the writing, but the re-writing (and the re-writing, and the re-writing, etc). there's a really great quote to that effect, but i can't remember what it is, exactly

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writing is easy. all u have to do is stare at a blank page until beads of blood form on your forehead.