ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

A friend and I were discussing this hand today.

Generic scenario - let's assume you've just sat down to a full ring table on Full Tilt.

You have A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in the BB.
UTG+1 limps.
MP3 limps.
Button limps.
You check.

Flop is T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

What do you do and why?

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

c/c shouldn't even be an option. just bet

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

I like c/r in this spot because it is likely Button will bet if everybody checks to him. I want to chase out UTG+1 with his two overcards, if possible. Even better if somebody also has a T.

And if it checks through it is no tragedy because even if a diamond hits the turn, somebody would have bet out their flush draw so you are probably still safe and now you face the field with a big bet. Of course it sucks if a J, Q, or K hits - but it is a relatively small pot anyway...

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like c/r in this spot because it is likely Button will bet if everybody checks to him. I want to chase out UTG+1 with his two overcards, if possible. Even better if somebody also has a T.

And if it checks through it is no tragedy because even if a diamond hits the turn, somebody would have bet out their flush draw so you are probably still safe and now you face the field with a big bet. Of course it sucks if a J, Q, or K hits - but it is a relatively small pot anyway...

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this thinking, however, I tend to bet out because I want flush draws and overcards to pay.

I might expect to get raised by someone with a flush draw, and called by someone with overcard draw. I would reraise, believing I still have the best hand. Then make a decision on the turn, which will probably be betting out, depending on my read of the remaining players.

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

bet to 3 bet or check raise take your pick

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

Are you guys trying to make me cry? Why are people so afraid of betting their damn hands?

Checkraise? Who? It's a limped pot; what makes you think someone's going to take a stab? Just bet for the love of Christ.

Argh. This is so standard.

OK, I'll try to stop being grouchy. Continue discussing the merits of checking TPTK in a limped pot... maybe I will learn something. After all, that's... what... we're... here for.

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you guys trying to make me cry? Why are people so afraid of betting their damn hands?

Checkraise? Who? It's a limped pot; what makes you think someone's going to take a stab? Just bet for the love of Christ.

Argh. This is so standard.

OK, I'll try to stop being grouchy. Continue discussing the merits of checking TPTK in a limped pot... maybe I will learn something. After all, that's... what... we're... here for.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Joker, just lock this thread for the sheer idiocy. Have we really degenerated down to this level of analysis, where there is no option of play other than the obvious?

There should be an exam to be eligible to post in Medium Stakes Limit.

Lock, lock, lock.....

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

Next Week in Medium Stakes:

"Hey guys, theoretical question here: You're in middle position with QQ, and UTG limps. He is loose and bad, so you decide to just limp. Two more players limp and the blinds check. The flop is QJ4 with two spades. UTG bets. What do you do?"

First response: "I just call."
Next response: "I like this thinking!"

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Next Week in Medium Stakes:

"Hey guys, theoretical question here: You're in middle position with QQ, and UTG limps. He is loose and bad, so you decide to just limp. Two more players limp and the blinds check. The flop is QJ4 with two spades. UTG bets. What do you do?"

First response: "I just call."
Next response: "I like this thinking!"

[/ QUOTE ]

Just this morning PJ i was talking with a friend and fellow 2p2er and told him about your LC post "What's going on in MLHE?!"

This one beats that.

My nomination for post of the year.

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

Hey - this was my contention all along. I thought I was going crazy since the person I was discussing this with is the guy who got me started in poker several years back, and I respect his thought process very much.

But here I needed a sanity to check to make sure I knew I wasn't losing it. The decision is very obvious to me as well.

Look at the poll though, there seem to be a few people who don't agree with us bettors.

I personally cannot imagine why you'd ever risk a flop like this getting checked through. You've easily got the best hand, so bet while you're ahead.

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

I am a SS reg. BEt BEt BEt BEt BEt. Come on.

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

Disclaimer: I play live only and mainly smaller stakes (moving up soon!)

Yes, this is a classic set up for c/r. But I would still rather bet out and either a) value pound out TPTK the rest of the hand, or b) if raised, 3 bet.

You could check this lousy flop and find it checked around, how would you feel then? Yes, you were smart enough to see a spot to be tricky and try to get a c/r, but so what? I'd rather make people face 2 cold to my 3 bet. Bet, bet, and bet again.

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

I can't see any reason to do anything other than bet.

Is this a serious question?

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like c/r in this spot because it is likely Button will bet if everybody checks to him. I want to chase out UTG+1 with his two overcards, if possible. Even better if somebody also has a T.

And if it checks through it is no tragedy because even if a diamond hits the turn, somebody would have bet out their flush draw so you are probably still safe and now you face the field with a big bet. Of course it sucks if a J, Q, or K hits - but it is a relatively small pot anyway...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is the button likely to bet? You know nothing about him. Letting this flop get checked through has to be terribly wrong.

Why let flush draws and overcards draw for free?

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

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I like c/r in this spot because it is likely Button will bet if everybody checks to him. I want to chase out UTG+1 with his two overcards, if possible. Even better if somebody also has a T.

And if it checks through it is no tragedy because even if a diamond hits the turn, somebody would have bet out their flush draw so you are probably still safe and now you face the field with a big bet. Of course it sucks if a J, Q, or K hits - but it is a relatively small pot anyway...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is the button likely to bet? You know nothing about him. Letting this flop get checked through has to be terribly wrong.

Why let flush draws and overcards draw for free?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he said the button is likely to bet because the button is likely to bet.

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

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I think he said the button is likely to bet because the button is likely to bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you base that on what exactly? Ever played with passive people before? It's possible it gets checked through and that's a sin to me.

Are you really advocating that betting is not the clear (and only) choice on this flop vs. a table of unknowns? Come on ...

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

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I think he said the button is likely to bet because the button is likely to bet.

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And you base that on what exactly? Ever played with passive people before? It's possible it gets checked through and that's a sin to me.

Are you really advocating that betting is not the clear (and only) choice on this flop vs. a table of unknowns? Come on ...

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said in my first post, I would bet out, for all the reasons you and others have said.

However, in many of the games I play in I can almost guarantee that the button will bet (position betting, for no other reason). But this is because I don't usually play with a table of passive players. I don't think OP said it was a table of unknowns.

But almost always I would bet out because I don't want to take the risk that this will be checked around. Nevertheless, I find the general message, "for any thinking player this is an autobet", to be wrong. I don't agree that there is only one way to play this hand.

I think the goal is to protect this hand and get as many bets in as possible, particularly against players who are dominated or drawing dead.

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

I just stopped by to say I checkraise here all the time.

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

Confucius say player cannot 3-bet flop unless he give other player chance to raise.

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

For people to say you have to bet, keep an open mind. Yes, without any other given information, the default line would be to bet/3-bet. This would be an especially standard play at a passive table.

But let's suppose we add some more information:

(a) Button is a habitual position bettor. You have the option to check-raise.
(b) MP3 and button are both very aggressive. You have the option to check-raise.

With these two scenarios, you'll often pick up a bet or two you normally wouldn't get if you bet out, and you can encounter the field with a check-raise.

It sounds to me like there are some inflexible people out there. However, I do agree that check/call should not be considered in this spot.

Garland

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

[ QUOTE ]

It sounds to me like there are some inflexible people out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Confucius say in a vacuum all player passive. If button is bet happy, he is not in vacuum

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, without any other given information, the default line would be to bet/3-bet. This would be an especially standard play at a passive table.
...
It sounds to me like there are some inflexible people out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]


Hey Garland, let's say you were in the CO and an unknown player limped in to your right. You're holding KK. What do you do?

Did you say raise? Why are you so inflexible? (By the way, I forgot to give you the extra information that the limper flashed you AA before you acted).

So while, yes, the *default* play is to raise KK, I think you should be aware that there are some situations, like when the limper has AA, where we can fold KK preflop. Just be flexible, ok?

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, without any other given information, the default line would be to bet/3-bet. This would be an especially standard play at a passive table.
...
It sounds to me like there are some inflexible people out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]


Hey Garland, let's say you were in the CO and an unknown player limped in to your right. You're holding KK. What do you do?

Did you say raise? Why are you so inflexible? (By the way, I forgot to give you the extra information that the limper flashed you AA before you acted).

So while, yes, the *default* play is to raise KK, I think you should be aware that there are some situations, like when the limper has AA, where we can fold KK preflop. Just be flexible, ok?

[/ QUOTE ]

Now you're just being silly. You're taking a 100% play like raising a limper with KK and comparing it to this?

There are 100% plays and then there are debatable plays.

I'm not disagreeing with the fact you should bet in this situation. At all. However, I am saying there are options, if someone were to explain them to me, I would listen. It sounds like you don't want to listen. Just like in all the pre-flop discussions with everyone telling you, Joker, that you could loosen up just a tad bit.

This hand was played on Full Tilt, right? An online site, not a live game. Now listen to this: I used to play online games frequently. And they were quite aggressive...much more aggressive than live. If someone were to tell me there was zero chance that this gets checked around on the flop (ignore the fact that the pot wasn't raised pre-flop), what do you think the correct play is?

Garland

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

Garland, I apologize if the post came off as snarky. All I was doing was exaggerating to prove a point. The point was that we suggested a line based on the given information.

You endorsed the exact same line as we did, based on the same information we had.

Then you went on to call us all inflexible for not proposing there may be a different line available if we had more/different information about the opponents. Of course that is true. But that goes without saying. The poll suggests what to do *in the situation presented*, not in a different situation with different information.

I don't know where you're getting the whole "it sounds like you don't want to listen" observation from. Obviously there are times where I'd c/r TPTK. (e.g. I call a button raise from the BB with ATs and the flop comes Txx; obviously a c/r is a fine line to take there). But that wasn't the scenario.

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Garland, I apologize if the post came off as snarky.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's fine. I know what your point was. Although, it did appear mean at the time.

[ QUOTE ]
Then you went on to call us all inflexible for not proposing there may be a different line available if we had more/different information about the opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

The information that was available to all of us at the time was it was an online game. And as I remember these games, there was a much greater chance of a bet on the flop with these games than live games. If it were a live game, 100% bet/3-bet the flop. Now it's an online game where I'm not quite sure which play is correct (partly because I just entered the game, and partly because I just came back to online play after a long layoff, but remember online games as very, very tough/aggressive). I might actually actually take two different lines. Something like 75% bet/25% check-raise/0% check-call. And this can change of course during the course of a game. It's called "mixing it up". We do this once in awhile to vary our game because we don't have to be robots.

Garland

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
c/c shouldn't even be an option. just bet

[/ QUOTE ]

happy bday kiddo.

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

Why should I bother playing a guessing game as to whether or not my unknown opponents might be aggressive? What's the worst that can happen if I bet... they fold? Oh no, I won the pot. And if they don't... they might raise. Oh no, then I have to 3-bet TPTK.

What's the worst that can happen if I check... it checks around. Now a whole bunch of cards can come off on the turn to make my pot equity plummet. That's-a no good.

So I say again: these are unknowns. It's a limped pot. I flopped TPTK on a board with 2 diamonds. I'm betting it. It's the best play. I can't see how betting is not a good play.

And please don't patronize me by explaining what "mixing it up" means. Come on, man. You really think I never mix it up? That's so condescending and insulting.

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

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[ QUOTE ]
c/c shouldn't even be an option. just bet

[/ QUOTE ]

happy bday kiddo.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks jonah

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So I say again: these are unknowns. It's a limped pot. I flopped TPTK on a board with 2 diamonds. I'm betting it. It's the best play. I can't see how betting is not a good play.

[/ QUOTE ]

yup

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
And please don't patronize me by explaining what "mixing it up" means. Come on, man. You really think I never mix it up?

[/ QUOTE ]
http://www.dustygroove.com/images/pr...ciala_101b.jpg

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
What's the worst that can happen if I check... it checks around. Now a whole bunch of cards can come off on the turn to make my pot equity plummet. That's-a no good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that's the worst that can happen. But what's the best that can happen if it gets checked through? An A appears and you get paid off by a hand that would otherwise fold if you bet out. A blank comes off, and your equity jumps and you can encounter the field with a double-sized bet into a smaller pot. There's two sides to every coin.

In check-raising, the benefit comes from getting bets from hands that would never even call a bet in the first place.

If you were to ask what I should do a couple of years ago in the Paradise 20/40 full ring games in this particular spot (not knowing my specific opponents, but being keenly aware of how the games played), it would be check-raise all day. I'm not sure how Full Tilt runs, but I'm inclined to believe my online opponents are much more aggressive than my live counterparts, and I would at least entertain a check-raise line.

I agree that I was somewhat out of line with the adding information about the button and/or the MP3 and being "inflexible." But I will argue that online game aggression discussion should be part of the mix when making this decision. That should be where the crux of where I thought the "inflexible" thinking came in.

Now, let's try to end this peacefully: We both agree that we should bet/3-bet, right? No disagreement here. But you make it sound like there's no alternative. I'm pretty sure we are both mainly live players, correct? And most of the people here are too. (Please correct me if I'm wrong: TT, Private Joker, bakku I believe are mainly live players). Can we get some mid-stakes online pros (maybe specifically Full Tilt ones) to post here and get their prospective?

I apologize for the "mixing it up" remark. I did not intend to be condescending, and I'm sorry if I insulted you. That's obviously not the case after seeing the hand you played with CDC [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. Can we get on with our daily program now?

Garland <font color="yellow"> </font>

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

I'll just add in that I've played nearly a thousand hands of 5/10 6-max on PokerStars this week, and if this hand happened to me online in this situation, I'd be betting here about 93% of the time. 5% would be to mix it up and c/r, and 2% would be a misclick.

Granted, my online stakes are small stakes, and players in mid-stakes (15/30 and up) are more likely to bet this flop, so I can see why you might checkraise. But I still think betting is the best play as a default.

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

One more thing:

[ QUOTE ]
We both agree that we should bet/3-bet, right? No disagreement here. But you make it sound like there's no alternative.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said that, and I addressed this misguided complaint in my last post. I'm just arguing for betting as the default play given no other information. The poll options don't let us pick two. They force us to pick one. If I had to pick one, I think betting is clearly the best choice. But saying it's the best doesn't mean there's no alternative.

[ QUOTE ]
Can we get some mid-stakes online pros (maybe specifically Full Tilt ones) to post here and get their prospective?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's "perspective."

[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It sounds to me like there are some inflexible people out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Confucius say in a vacuum all player passive. If button is bet happy, he is not in vacuum

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm willing to bet Confucius didn't live in the age of internet poker. In a vacuum all live button player passive. In a vacuum all online button player aggressive.

Garland

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It sounds to me like there are some inflexible people out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Confucius say in a vacuum all player passive. If button is bet happy, he is not in vacuum

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm willing to bet Confucius didn't live in the age of internet poker. In a vacuum all live button player passive. In a vacuum all online button player aggressive.

Garland

[/ QUOTE ]

since when did you become retarded? ALLL???

I'll give you a hint - the OP never said what limit.

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'll just add in that I've played nearly a thousand hands of 5/10 6-max on PokerStars this week, and if this hand happened to me online in this situation, I'd be betting here about 93% of the time. 5% would be to mix it up and c/r, and 2% would be a misclick.

Granted, my online stakes are small stakes, and players in mid-stakes (15/30 and up) are more likely to bet this flop, so I can see why you might checkraise. But I still think betting is the best play as a default.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not only small stakes, but also 6-max.

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I never said that [sound like there's no alternative], and I addressed this misguided complaint in my last post. I'm just arguing for betting as the default play given no other information.

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I guess it was the tone of which you made your initial post:

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Are you guys trying to make me cry? ... Argh. This is so standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

The tone of that post made me believe that you wanted to lock the thread because it was absolutely stupid for anyone to even argue for a check-raise alternative. Admit it, you were probably on the verge of doing it. With the tone and content of that post alone, my belief is that a lot of people who would even think of expressing a post containing "check-raise" might have backed off in fear of being ridiculed.

[ QUOTE ]
It's "perspective."

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn it, I'm intensely studying "prospective" and "retrospective" scheduling of amortization schedules for my test. I knew this would bite me in the a**.

Garland

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'll give you a hint - the OP never said what limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll give what I assume to be reasonable. He's posting in a "Medium Stakes" limit forum. I'm going to assume he's posting a medium stakes hand from 15/30 to 40/80.

[ QUOTE ]
ALLL???

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When I use the word "all" and "vacuum" in the same sentence, I mean more than 50%.

[ QUOTE ]
since when did you become retarded?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for being professional and not making personal insults. I always appreciated the fact we could be civil around here despite our differences.

Garland

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
since when did you become retarded?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for being professional and not making personal insults. I always appreciated the fact we could be civil around here despite our differences.

Garland

[/ QUOTE ]

no differences, just wondering why you have been foaming at the mouth lately. You were never so argumentative when you were wrong in the past, its as if your a pit bull lately - never backing down and digging the hole deeper and deeper. The old Garland was much easer to debate with, the new one is... well, annoying. Bring back the old Garland.

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
since when did you become retarded?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for being professional and not making personal insults. I always appreciated the fact we could be civil around here despite our differences.

Garland

[/ QUOTE ]

no differences, just wondering why you have been foaming at the mouth lately. You were never so argumentative when you were wrong in the past, its as if your a pit bull lately - never backing down and digging the hole deeper and deeper. The old Garland was much easer to debate with, the new one is... well, annoying. Bring back the old Garland.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no "new Garland" or "old Garland". If I believe I'm right, I'll fight tooth and nail. If I realize I'm wrong I'll admit it. I think most people know that around here. If you haven't noticed, I've already made concessions and apologized in this thread alone. I still think I have a point about some people being a bit "inflexible" in their thinking. My one and only point now is we are playing in what is most likely to be an aggressive online game, and although I would prefer to bet/3-bet the hand, I wouldn't hate it if someone were to suggest why check-raising would be better.

I still don't like being called "retarded". That would be true if I'm "old" or "new", "right" or "wrong".

Garland

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you guys trying to make me cry? Why are people so afraid of betting their damn hands?

Checkraise? Who? It's a limped pot; what makes you think someone's going to take a stab? Just bet for the love of Christ.

Argh. This is so standard.

OK, I'll try to stop being grouchy. Continue discussing the merits of checking TPTK in a limped pot... maybe I will learn something. After all, that's... what... we're... here for.

[/ QUOTE ]
I play 10/20 live @ FW and I would typically bet out in this hand because there is a fair chance the flop would get checked through. But there are times (maybe 20%-30%) where I can count on the button to bet if checked to, so then I go for a C/R.

Online is a very different game in my experience though I have never played Full Tilt. My experience was that it gets checked through infrequently. My default play would be to C/R and bet out in the cases where I knew the other players to be passive/cautious (which would be about 20%).

The problem with betting out when a C/R would have been available is that it fails to protect a vulnerable hand against up to two other players. My experience both live and online play is that when a BB bets out nobody puts them on top pair and everybody is willing to call a flop bet with even just one overcard.

There is another advantage to check raising occasionally/frequently on the flop. Over time people become less willing to bet in position when checked to and it opens up steal opportunities from SB and BB on the turn (as if I had just whiffed on a flop check raise).

Re: ATo in BB - simple flop question
 

you know we can mix things up by betting this flop with a wide range of hands.