flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

Opponent is a good aggressive player. If you fold, whats the highest flush you call with?

Full Tilt Poker, NL Hold'em Tournament, 15/30 Blinds, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG+2: 3,985
MP1: 2,850
MP2: 3,015
CO: 2,925
Hero: 2,485
SB: 2,965
BB: 2,955
UTG: 2,865
UTG+1: 3,056

Pre-Flop: (45) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
4 folds, <font color="red">MP2 raises to 85</font>, CO folds, Hero calls 85, 2 folds

Flop: (215) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">MP2 bets 145</font>, Hero calls 145

Turn: (505) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
MP2 checks, Hero checks

River: (505) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
MP2 checks, <font color="red">Hero bets 370</font>, <font color="red">MP2 raises to 2,785 and is All-In</font>

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

The lowest flush I'm calling with here is 52cc. If this guy has a bigger flush here, I think you're up against a superuser account because that is an unbelievably weird line to take on the river.

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

hah im def not folding this as played

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

wat do u mean "as played"

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

i think vrs a good agressive opponent your dead here. Even agressive opponents if there good are very very unlikely unlikely to risk ther whole stack on a bluff, esp an overbet shove without a really good hand. Also if hes good he wouldnt be value betting on a c/r with worse. On top of that most mtt players arent really capable of c/r rivers as bluffs in general so id fold here. Also as an addition against the player u described i think a re raise pre is probably a better option than calling, but the difference is subtle

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

you have JT for all intents and purposes. i'm folding this unless i have a reason to think he's making a move.

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

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wat do u mean "as played"

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i mean that neither of you has show any strength up till the river, he didn't 2 barrell his flushdraw when a good 2 barrell card hits, and he checks his high flush again on the river hoping you bet. its like he played this hand with the intention of only stacking a lower flush. On the other hand, thats a huge [censored] shove and bluffing here is weird. [censored] i dunno I probobly do fold

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

This is a bluff with the A of clubs from someone who plays too much PLO.

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

i dont think he shows up with anything but the nuts here

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

your getting dangerously close to ignore, Todd

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

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This is a bluff with the A of clubs from someone who plays too much PLO.

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no it's not, because nobody does that.

I mean, it could be a donk with any of a number of dumb hands, but it's never a bluff by the naked Ac by someone playing too much PLO.

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

dono if you are just generalizing but read was given in the OP as good aggro player fwiw

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

Weird hand. I prolly fold, but why on earth would anyone play like that.

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

I fold unhappily even though I'm pretty sure its a clear fold

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

Bakes, has the villian a good knowledge of your game? Have you guys tangled before to any great degree? Is there any chance that he checks this river to you because he fully expects a bet from you a high percentage of the time?

Because if you are beat he has done something VERY unorthodox in this hand. I'm confused and we have a flush on a non paired board so like the tourney donk that I am - I would call here.

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

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This is a bluff with the A of clubs from someone who plays too much PLO.

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no it's not, because nobody does that.

I mean, it could be a donk with any of a number of dumb hands, but it's never a bluff by the naked Ac by someone playing too much PLO.

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I've seen this play made three times with the naked A, twice unsucessfully, once successfully, in 10K buy-in events -- 2006 USPC at the Taj (unknown player, successful), 2006 Mandalay Bay WPT (Steve Zoine, unsuccessful), 2007 Borgata WPT (unknown player, unsuccessful). I've never seen anyone play the nut flush like this, ever, nor can I come up with a reason why anyone ever would, other than being able to see Bakes' cards.

If it's not the nuts, which I refuse to believe it is, then he must feel confident he's not getting called, ergo he has the A of clubs.

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

Lloyd, if he expects hero to bet the river, why do you assume he is checking to him so he can Bluff CRAI?

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

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I fold unhappily even though I'm pretty sure its a clear fold

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Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

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I fold happily because I'm pretty sure its a clear fold

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Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

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wat do u mean "as played"

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i mean that neither of you has show any strength up till the river, he didn't 2 barrell his flushdraw when a good 2 barrell card hits, and he checks his high flush again on the river hoping you bet. its like he played this hand with the intention of only stacking a lower flush. On the other hand, thats a huge [censored] shove and bluffing here is weird. [censored] i dunno I probobly do fold

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FWIW I think not c/ring a flush on this river is really terrible. I would fold and turn isn't that great a two barreling card.

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

well time for results i was villain and had A5cc but he folded and didn't show. so.

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

bet turn yo

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

meh. to triple barrel? i dont think i can get him off of a lot plus he might jam on me

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

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meh. to triple barrel? i dont think i can get him off of a lot plus he might jam on me

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Ya but that way when you hit you dont need to c/r like 6x pot.

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

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you have JT for all intents and purposes. i'm folding this unless i have a reason to think he's making a move.

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yeah this is 100% bluff catcher, though I find it interesting that w/e he raised with preflop wasn't worth a double barrel as a FD. B/c of this I think I look him up. (though double barreling frequency/dynamic is different in tournaments so you tell me)

just saw results post. bakes just out of curiosity do you ever semibluff like A8cc here/why didn't you bet the turn. Were you going to call raise or fold if he bet the turn?

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

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well time for results i was villain and had A5cc but he folded and didn't show. so.

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So this hand was basically a work of fiction?

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

Making the liberal assumption that preflop the people behind you are calling with any suited connectors or one-gapped cards, on the flop, the probability that you're up against another flush draw given that 2 cards of your suit flopped is 3.12%. Given that you're both chasing the flush, it's going to come in after the flop 29.0% of the time. So you're going to have flush over flush on the turn or river .0312*.290 = 0.85% of the time. And, assuming the responses of this board are somewhat representative of your opponents in a $1K event, a smaller flush is getting folded 70% of the time on the river to your C/R. So you're maximizing your payoff by playing the hand this way 0.0085*0.7 = 0.59% of the time, or 1 time in 168.

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

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Making the liberal assumption that preflop the people behind you are calling with any suited connectors or one-gapped cards, on the flop, the probability that you're up against another flush draw given that 2 cards of your suit flopped is 3.12%. Given that you're both chasing the flush, it's going to come in after the flop 29.0% of the time. So you're going to have flush over flush on the turn or river .0312*.290 = 0.85% of the time. And, assuming the responses of this board are somewhat representative of your opponents in a $1K event, a smaller flush is getting folded 70% of the time on the river to your C/R. So you're maximizing your payoff by playing the hand this way 0.0085*0.7 = 0.59% of the time, or 1 time in 168.

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Villain will never raise a river lead but will often valuebet river and will occasionally call our raise. A good player also folds to a river bet more often than he will valuebet a hand he would have folded if his opponent leads the river. A5cc guy isnt maximizing vs other flushes he is generally making a +EV play because his opponent wont check behind everything else except a flush.
If villain checks behind he would have also folded to a bet.

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

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Making the liberal assumption that preflop the people behind you are calling with any suited connectors or one-gapped cards, on the flop, the probability that you're up against another flush draw given that 2 cards of your suit flopped is 3.12%. Given that you're both chasing the flush, it's going to come in after the flop 29.0% of the time. So you're going to have flush over flush on the turn or river .0312*.290 = 0.85% of the time. And, assuming the responses of this board are somewhat representative of your opponents in a $1K event, a smaller flush is getting folded 70% of the time on the river to your C/R. So you're maximizing your payoff by playing the hand this way 0.0085*0.7 = 0.59% of the time, or 1 time in 168.

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Villain will never raise a river lead but will often valuebet river and will occasionally call our raise. A good player also folds to a river bet more often than he will valuebet a hand he would have folded if his opponent leads the river. A5cc guy isnt maximizing vs other flushes he is generally making a +EV play because his opponent wont check behind everything else except a flush.
If villain checks behind he would have also folded to a bet.

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The first sentence is debatable, IMO a non-nut flush, especially a big one, will raise a river lead here sometimes. The second sentence, which is the same as the last sentence, I do not agree with. I think a lot of hands are calling a river lead but checking behind.

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

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meh. to triple barrel? i dont think i can get him off of a lot plus he might jam on me

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it makes him fold all those pocket pairs in his range

you dont have to bet riv if you blank

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

also wouldnt it be great to bet something really small on riv so you get value out of JT and he still raises a bet

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

yea thats what duck said and i like it a bit better, 300 lead

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

is that what duck said?

i dont know i put her on ignore when she made fun of me in hsnl a few weeks ago

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

JK VANESSA

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

Man 2 barreling with A5 seems so gross

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

Fold preflop.

SS

Re: flush vs big river raise in FTP 1k
 

weak table