Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

I made a post before about this, but this time I have some citations from the book <u>How to Beat Low-Limit 7-Card Stud Poker</u>
On the 3rd street chapter at the end. Question number one of the quiz asks
"You hold pocket jacks with a deuce on the board and are in the bring-in bet. Do you bring in for a dollar or the full ammount (supposing this is 2/4 stud)

The answer as you turn the page states

"Bet the full amount. You have a good starting hand. You want to force out other drawing hands early on so they won't give you trouble down the line."

I say this is fine if you look around the board and there is no more than 1 card higher than the jacks you have in the hole, but if there is more than 2 cards higher than those jacks is it really right to complete here? I may disagree with Kammen here.

Then again is he just contradicting himself since in the 3rd street talk about playing a high pair he uses a pocket 10's as an example with an ace as a door card, and he states "If you see two or more cards that are bigger than yours, just limp in. If it is raised from the bring-in of a doller to two dollars, go ahead and call. If it is re-raised, think carefully about calling. The only time you should call a re-raise in this situation is when you have alarge kicker and all of your cards are live."

So this means that If I bring in the full bet with jacks that If I'm reraised by that Q or K that I should drop the hand since my kicker is obviously a 2?

So it looks like I am right in bringing in the full bet if I look around and less than 2 cards are higher than my jacks, but If there are more than 2 I just limp hoping that it is not raised and reraised before it gets to me?

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

I think there was just a thread on this. The consensus was to pretty much never bring in full (in a full ring game). Ray Zee agreed and a lot of players say to NEVER bring in full. Kammen is way outnumbered here. I haven't read his book, but it doesn't get rave reviews. He has posted here in the past so maybe he wants to explain his reasoning...

Edit: the OP there was you...is this a different question than before?

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

Nope, I just reread the book to clarify his exact statement.
So does he contradict himself in someway since he says not to raise the bet with a premium pair if there are two higher cards yet to act, yet he just plainly states to bring in full with jacks concealed.

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

It would have been more appropriate to post this in the existing thread.

I trashed the Kammen book in this thread a couple of years back. Skip it and get 7CS4AP.

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

You state
"Kammen has you slow-play big rolled-up trips but play small rolled-up trips fast. I’ve seen similar advice elsewhere—West, and I think even 7CS4AP. I have two problems with this. One, I just don’t think there’s that much difference between 222 and AAA. I have lost with rolled-up trips many times, at least 20 or 30. I don’t think I’ve lost with rolled-up trips to a bigger set more than once or twice. It’s mostly been straights and flushes and a couple of full houses."

I disagree it is very easy to be out drawn to a better set here. I will take a set of jacks over a set of 5's anyday. Any moron holding a pair of nines can make a set and turn you into a dog, as apposed to having the solid set of kings or aces which are much harder for someone to crack. I like his explanation of playing small sets fast as you can be outdrawn many a time with a bigger pair.

You then state
"Kammen suggests that if someone is showing open Queens and you have pocket Jacks on fourth street, you can call if your hand is live and the other guy’s is dead. I think that this is a terrible game-plan. If someone disagrees with me, I’ll go into mind-numbing detail."

[b]I agree with Kammen here. He states you can go ahead and call if A) They have dead cards and B) You have live draws, with a good kicker. If you see that two queens are dead and you have your jacks as a total live draw as well as a better kicker than a queen, say JJK it is fine draw to a better hand depending on the pot size

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

Good Advice!

[quote Skip it and get 7CS4AP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

The other book i got before I'm going to read 7CSFAP is the Winning 7-Card Stud: Transforming Home players into casino killers.
After that book I'll pick it up.

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

Understand Zee's advice and you don't need a book, ANY BOOK.

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

Given the fact that the guy with open queens will likely make a double bet, combined with the possibility that you may be drawing dead, combined with the fact that you are absolutely certain you have the worst hand, I can't understand calling unless somehow the pot is enormous.

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think there was just a thread on this. The consensus was to pretty much never bring in full (in a full ring game). Ray Zee agreed and a lot of players say to NEVER bring in full. Kammen is way outnumbered here. I haven't read his book, but it doesn't get rave reviews. He has posted here in the past so maybe he wants to explain his reasoning...

Edit: the OP there was you...is this a different question than before?

[/ QUOTE ]
Let me interject a slightly different question than before then. Say you're at a full, loose, low-limit table with a high ante (1/5 or 1/4 of a SB) and the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] brings it in. You're next to act with: (J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. What's your play (dependent on how the rest of the board looks)?

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

I am raising at a loose low limit table pretty much 90% of the time. The wired pair helps the deception of the hand which could turn into a very nice hand, as well as I'm usually raising with most premium pairs as long as there isn't more than 2 higher door cards left to act.
So I'm raising here as long as there are 2 or less higher door cards than my jacks.

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

SG

UTG 95% easy limp, very easy

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

[ QUOTE ]
SG

UTG 95% easy limp, very easy

[/ QUOTE ]

No.
If you have jacks that are better than any other door card showing why on earth are you limping. You are asking to get drawn on.

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

Reason why???

"if someone can put you accurately on a pair in the hole you are toast as they get to play their hand almost perfectly"

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

wrong context. Don't tag onto Ray Zee's nuts just because he says something. Here you want to raise if there aren't any other door cards behind you. Good if they put you on jacks then they wont call and you win the pot. You are crazy not to raise at a loose low-limit table here because you will get callers anyway who aren't thinking gee he must have jacks, they are thinking he probably has a pair of 2s.

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

A big pot too. You're wrong. You had a perfect chance to address Zee himself, THE MAN, and you completely ignored him. Yet you bring into the thread your author and a new book (Killer whatever). You have a chance to talk to Zee, why not do it? He's world class. Repeat, WORLD CLASS. How in the hell can you just blow him off??????????

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

He was right about bringing in. SG didn't say i was bring in there, I was UTG. two different things there buddy. You want to just BI if you are the BI and you want to raise if you are UTG. Even the o mighty Ray Zee would say to raise UTG with wired jacks and the board looks nonthreatening.

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

8 players. BI and UTG, 2 vs 3, are two different things???????? they are the same, from the betting side, therefore EZ limp.

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

UTG is after the BI... It's not the same thing.

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

[ QUOTE ]
You then state
"Kammen suggests that if someone is showing open Queens and you have pocket Jacks on fourth street, you can call if your hand is live and the other guy’s is dead. I think that this is a terrible game-plan. If someone disagrees with me, I’ll go into mind-numbing detail."

I agree with Kammen here. He states you can go ahead and call if A) They have dead cards and B) You have live draws, with a good kicker. If you see that two queens are dead and you have your jacks as a total live draw as well as a better kicker than a queen, say JJK it is fine draw to a better hand depending on the pot size

[/ QUOTE ]

Ceegee, I don't think I understand what you're saying. If the villain has a better hand (two queens vs. your two jacks), and you have only five outs (two jacks and three kings (or three runners for a straight)); you'd need monstrous pot odds (at least 10:1) to call. Right?

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

notice I said depending on the pot size. Which he emphasizes in later chapters that pot size is a very demanding factor.

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

Ah. Thanks, Ceegee.

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

Early position is early position. And late position on the later streets is desired for the CR plays. Knock-out stud has its place, but not at low limits. DS says just the opposite of your entire two threads. Get the book ASAP.

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

[ QUOTE ]
Reason why???

"if someone can put you accurately on a pair in the hole you are toast as they get to play their hand almost perfectly"

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, thanks for the comments. Do you play it the same way with split JJ?

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

He doesn't understand that Ray Zee was talking about the bringin and not EP. Way different.

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

[ QUOTE ]
Reason why???

"if someone can put you accurately on a pair in the hole you are toast as they get to play their hand almost perfectly"

[/ QUOTE ]

Low limit players rarely put you on anything accurately, and even when they do, they still make mistakes.

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

SG

"Ok, thanks for the comments. Do you play it the same way with split JJ?"

The OP uses 2/4 as an example, so its a situation where I like to mix it up. But its about 80/20 limp. This could change based on my position to the "whale(s)" or any fish playing. But I'm basicly reversing strategies here, which I believe is DS's recommendations for loose games. These are "play more hands" and "keep the early betting down". 2/4 is the lowest I play online, and it works. Knock-out games are different, MUCH different.

dsaxtion

"Low limit players rarely put you on anything accurately, and even when they do, they still make mistakes."

Again 2/4 here. Agree that SOME players have no handreading skills, but not all. Including myself, at least 3 players have an excellent awareness of whats going on on any given 2/4 table. And all it takes is just 1. If you have any experience with online stud over the last 5 years, you know the stud population is getting smaller. The excellent players win and play at any game available now. Hell, Andy plays at 1/2 with Red D, as well as a lot of other excellent posters. And their mistakes are limited, thus the "almost perfect play". At these limits my motto is "Cheap fold or Biggie Pot". 19-1 is nice when it hits, but lets wait until it does. 2/4 is still a game of getting an extra bet when you have the goods and saving a bet when they have the goods. 2/4 is the lowest for me and it works for me. And I love playing hands almost perfectly.

Cee

"way different". How so????

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

It is way different because like Ray Zee said, If you have a strong hand and complete in the bring in, people can tell. You have the choice of only bringing in for a little and if you choose to bring in for full it definitly shows you have a good hand, which people can then tell you have a premium pair or trips here. If you are UTG and complete, this could be any range from A2[2] to TT[2] if you are loose at a low limit game.
If you limp the jacks with a Queen and King left to act and they limp as well, you are asking for the drawing hands to catch as well as maybe one of the queens or kings pairing their door card. The main objetive in stud according to every book I've read is to get people out as early as you can, and without a monster EP, trips, you don't want people drawing to a hand that will beat yours. You want to play most premium pairs agressive if the board looks non threatening.
The only case where you will limp EP is if you have a bord like Q, K, J, A, left to act because you have 3 higher door cards as well as your jack are dead.

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

The guy who starts with a pair has something like a 16% chance to hit his set if he stays in until the river. One-pair hands can't handle a lot of pressure and are frequently folded before the end. Meanwhile, if you're rolled, you've got a 40% chance to improve yourself. The guy with one pair isn't that great of a threat. I'm a lot more worried about straight and flush draws.

As for taking your Jacks against open Queens, let's discuss a couple of possible scenarios. Let's say that the Queen raised third, and you called with Jacks because there was a Queen out and you like to gamble. The other guy now hits open Queens. If, as is typical of low-limit stud players, the other guy will only raise third street with big pairs, his possible distribution of hands might look something like this:

AA 6 ways
KK 6 ways
Qx 41 ways
JJ 1 way
TT 6 ways

So it's overwhelmingly likely that he has you crushed. You can't call with JJ in this spot, and it essentially doesn't matter how big the pot is.

Now say that you were the raiser with your Jacks and he called. He probably has something, and maybe it ain't much, but enough for him to call with. There's at least some chance he started with split Queens, and maybe he didn't raise because he didn't like the dead cards or maybe he's scared of his own shadow. Maybe he started with a pair in the hole, in which case you're drawing to two outs. If you have an over-card kicker, it's five outs, but he can still outdraw you. Here, you're not in good shape, and it is very unlikely that the pot will be big enough for you to stay with him. If the pot is big, what the hell are you doing in a big pot with a pair of Jacks in the first place?

Even if the guy "only" started with a three-flush, you're behind, and on balance, the pot isn't going to be big enough to justify look him up. If you never called when you were beaten on board, you wouldn't be far wrong. I make an exception if I have a strong draw and the other guy has an open pair but doesn't seem to be that much of a threat.

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

I can see why you would fold on 4th if they have open queens. He is not saying go ahead and call with only a better kicker, most of the time you want to call if you have a drawing hand as well, IE. JsJcQc[Kc] and your flush and straight is live. I see no reason in folding to a bet faced against queens. Open queens I may call then check fold If I don't improve.

My argument is against Poker CPA on raising UTG with JJ[2] on a non threatening board.


"Even if the guy "only" started with a three-flush, you're behind, and on balance, the pot isn't going to be big enough to justify look him up."

7-card Stud Hi: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js 2s Jh 329827 65.97 170161 34.03 12 0.00 0.660
Qc Tc 5c 170161 34.03 329827 65.97 12 0.00 0.340

That is with 3 clubs dead.

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

I'm talking a scenario where you started with Jacks, the other guy started with a three-flush, and he is now showing open Queens. You're not in great shape in this scenario, either.

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

I'm not familiar with this book. Who wrote it? Please get 7CS4AP.

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

I'm pretty sure this idea comes from Chip's chapter in SSI.

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm talking a scenario where you started with Jacks, the other guy started with a three-flush, and he is now showing open Queens. You're not in great shape in this scenario, either.

[/ QUOTE ]

In this case it's usually a fold then. You are right, because not only does villan have queens with a trip draw or two pair he has a 3 flush. Unless I hold a soild two pair on 4th im ditching.

Now Andy I'd like your opinion on the JJ[2] UTG when faced with an nonthreatening board.

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

I'd pretty much always raise, especially at low limits. They're not putting you on a hand.

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

OK CG

"The main objetive in stud according to every book I've read is to get people out as early as you can"

Wrong - The main objective is drag the SOBs the the river and make them payoff on streets 4 thru 7. And wait for them to say "Gee I never know what you're doing, you're the best".

"you don't want people drawing to a hand that will beat yours."

So CJ do you want players chasing you or do you want to be chasing them. I'm confused because most players are trying to beat at least a PP. Everyone behind is drawing and this is where the major mistakes are made. I say let the SOBs chase the trips, st8s and flushs.

Now on to the books. What is your book??? Mine is 7CSAP and the section is "Playing in Loose Games" pages 132 to 174. Page 138 basicly says it all.

Experience tells me in low limit and loose games that "Cheap folds and Biggie Pots" win every time. The battle is not 3th or 4th, but 5th to the river. Not so in the higher limits.

Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....
 

"Wrong - The main objective is drag the SOBs the the river and make them payoff on streets 4 thru 7. And wait for them to say "Gee I never know what you're doing, you're the best".

Lol stop and go read some stud books please. You want people to outdraw you? it's +ev to take down a pot when you can unless you have a MONSTER. Seriously take a step back, look at the information on this board and read a couple stud books, and if you have reread them because you are wrong. You cannot slow play aces or kings or any premium pair on 4th if you haven't made trips. People will draw to two pair a lot of the time. You want them out of the pot before they get a chance to do that.