100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

Game is 3 handed on stars. There seem to have been a lot of good high stakes threads lately, so lets keep it up. p3achy is a super tough stars reg, most of you obviously know him. We have played a ton together, so I don't know how well i can describe our dynamic in a post... I have on many occasions tried weird bluffs vs him and he snaps me off regularly. We talk on aim about poker a bit and he probably respects my game and thinks I balance well in spots like these, though I can't really be sure.

I open A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] otb to 600, p3achy calls in the sb, bb folds. (20k stacks)

Flop is 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (1400 in the pot)
We both check.

Turn (1400): J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
He bets 1400.

I was a little nervous at the fact that he potted, but I bump it to 4800, he calls after thinking for ~15 secs.

River T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (11,000)
He checks. I...

I think case can obviously made for either raising or calling on turn, and on river the ppl I talked to all thought it was close between valuebet and ck behind.

So... 1) Turn thoughts?
2) River thoughts?

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

I like the turn raise and I bet 2/3rds of the pot on the river for value, with intent of calling a raise by p3achy.

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

Pretty interesting spot.. problem is that you have > 1pair here like never, and he knows it... but I mean he's got to be thinking that you're aware of this as well.. I think I bet 3/4 pot and fold to a shove.. but I mean this is pretty dynamic-dependent.. cool hand though

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

hm, a lot of high stakes players have varied ranges cold calling here preflop 3 handed. I would think that AJ is the bottom of your range that you would raise for value here against a tough reg at 100/200. Id assume ud just flat call sometimes, and that youd raise with draws here sometimes. I dont know, your line seems pretty fishy...but since the 10 rolled off, his combos of Jx worse than you that he would call preflop are lessened, so you are basically hoping he is holding QJ or KJ, or some bluff catcher like 88 and is going to snap you off again.

I dont know the player passed like 100 hands maybe of 25/50 full ring, but if he really really likes to snap off your weird bluffs, i would bet like 7-8k here. Do you think he'll call with QJ here? do you think he'd lead/call with 88 on the turn?

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

given the history i think betting on the smaller side and calling all in is okay

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

I don't really think this is that interesting.

Raise turn > 80% of the time.... and you should be stabbed if you don't value bet this river. Not sure what to do vs. a shove, gotta soulread

and even if I didn't know what to do vs. a shove I still think its a bet, there's no way this isn't a bet

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

Cool hand.

I like bet 7k and fold if he minraise shoves.

Just seems like such a great spot for him to try to pick off a bluff since your value betting range is basically just AJ, so if you're bluffing here with any regularity he should be calling really light.

I don't really get calling a shove on the river. In order for this to be a good call he has to both be willing to set up [censored] stacks with hearts or 89 on the turn and be willing to minraise bluff the river. So I don't really think a bluff makes sense on the river, but a c/r with a set or JT def makes sense since he should expect your range to have a lot of air in it as I said before.

Also, happy birthday.

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

bet call river 100%. peachy = monkey!

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really think this is that interesting.

Raise turn > 80% of the time.... and you should be stabbed if you don't value bet this river. Not sure what to do vs. a shove, gotta soulread

and even if I didn't know what to do vs. a shove I still think its a bet, there's no way this isn't a bet

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it's closer than you think... u think he is potting and calling a raise on the turn, then paying off a riv bet w/ 88, 99 here? Not saying i dont think so, just curious if u think that would be standard here. Or do you think most of his range is QJs KJs type hands? Or do you want to bet to induce a c/r bluff?

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

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bet call river 100%. peachy = monkey!

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!!

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

Whats your plan on a turn push?

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

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Whats your plan on a turn push?

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call

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

Ansky,
Is there really any difference between KJ and 88?

edit: I suppose there is but its pretty marginal. I mean the onyl hands it makes a difference for are like QJ/J9/J8 but I don't think your raising teh turn and betting the river with like any of those.

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ansky,
Is there really any difference between KJ and 88?

[/ QUOTE ]

less combos of jacks left in the deck, tho w/ 88 less combos of 98...

anyway, there is a difference.

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

if you're not vbetting tptk on the river with this relatively dry board then aren't you making life way too easy for peachy?

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

i dont make much of the turn pot $1400 bet. why do you think thats important compared to say $1000?

peachy is def tough, but he WILL look up if he suspects something fishy going on. that said, i dont think your line instills that suspicion, and i would be surprised if he didnt play straightfowrard here, only calling with better hands. so id check the river. i dont think htis is a 100% bet at all, unless you have history with thin vbetting and range merging and all that

btw calling the turn is pretty standard for me in this spot. maybe im losing value. but i like the deception that position offers me here. and i dont like betting to induce river cr with these stacks and pot size. doesnt feel right.

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

I think this is a clear valuebet btw. Can't see him c/r bluffing you here, but he may give you more credit for being able to bet/fold river than a f'king euro...

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

I think I call turn here more often than raise, but obv do both. Against peachy, I bet 6k and snap call a shove

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

I think river is a def. bet/call.

Edit: And I think turn raise >>> call.

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

this is p3achy-
i think given our history you played this hand fine.

edit: river is a CLEAR bet/call

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like the turn raise and I bet 2/3rds of the pot on the river for value, with intent of calling a raise by p3achy.

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Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

how often are you raising the turn as a bluff then bluffing the river? he probably doesnt slowplay a better hand here that often so id def bet.

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

bet 7k/fold.. but if you have done this earlier he might pull a jman vs pa on you or at least will do it later, so call if you think he's able to do that..

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

Idk how often you overbet ai as a bluff here, but if it were me I'd shove

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

I'd bet/call the river. I also wouldn't raise the turn.

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

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if you're not vbetting tptk on the river with this relatively dry board then aren't you making life way too easy for peachy?

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this and once he doesnt shove turn, can we ever really be behind? I mean he knows you probabably will call a turn shove on the lighter side, (meaning one pair). Although, given that there are so few draws it would be pretty sick of him to flat call a huge hand on the turn since he knows you are likely to vb thin on the river and if your range on the turn is air or AJ, KJ, QQ ish then it makes sense that he might mix it up. I guess it depends on your history and how monkey you guys go at it. If you both have a history of getting it in light and crazy thin calls/bluffs then id expect him to have us beat almost never. If you guys respect each other a lot and play a more normal game towards each other than I dont go for value here.

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

like i said i think this is good, i might err on like 6150 on the river

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

I don't get why you guys think he'll shove a big hand on the turn, seems like our range is polarized to bluffs/hands that will vbet river and almost never a draw except for 89.

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

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I don't get why you guys think he'll shove a big hand on the turn, seems like our range is polarized to bluffs/hands that will vbet river and almost never a draw except for 89.

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agree

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

I don`t like the turn raise, because yòu don`t need to protect you hand and you stop him from bluffing river.

I think he`s more likely to bluff river than call 2 strreats with worse hands

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

p3achy is too good, i'd avoid him completely but given the way the hand was played not betting river seems criminal. i'd probably bet like 7200 and if he shoves puke and call.

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

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p3achy is too good, i'd avoid him completely but given the way the hand was played not betting river seems criminal. i'd probably bet like 7200 and if he shoves puke and call.

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what do you mean he is too good and you would avoid him? Should i open fold the flop ? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

i bet small (60-65% pot) on river and call shove

betting big doesnt let him think he has fold equity and probably doesnt leave you room to fold, so might as well bet small and induce a shove

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't get why you guys think he'll shove a big hand on the turn, seems like our range is polarized to bluffs/hands that will vbet river and almost never a draw except for 89.

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agree

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ding ding ding

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

for me, it's between shove and check on this river. i dont understand a bet other than a shove at all in this spot. and i'd usually shove because if your hand is good, you have to hope to get looked up by a pretty marginal hand and a shove looks the most bluffy. but if he's very good and I think he might be letting me hang myself, then I can see a check. but if you bet small, he's just going to push all better hands and then you'll be too committed to fold - so you just cost yourself cash and look less like you're bluffing. both bad things.

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

so how about bet/folding then...

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

but you're getting such sick odds on the last call. and why would you bet less than full pot leaving you with like 1/6th pot left? it just makes no sense to bet less than all-in here, to my mind. you have less than 1.5x pot left. i dont see any reason why you wouldn't just shove it in. if you had missed 8 high hearts, wouldnt you put it all in if you were going to bluff? it just seems weird to bet like 7k and then leave yourself 8 more in a 25k pot...?

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

i would have raised to less on the turn, and i would be fine betting 3/5 of the pot on the river

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

I agree with most everyone and say you should bet 2/3 pottish and call a shove

Re: 100/200 - 2 decisions vs p3achy
 

I dislike raising the turn, but I do not for one second understand why anyone would raise turn here NOT to bet this river; that simply makes no sense to me.