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-   -   Why online poker sucks. (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=555719)

STOPRAKEGREED 11-27-2007 09:39 PM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
OP has played every limit from .01-.02 up to 100-200, mostly multi tabling 15-30 online and mostly 15-30 live

Komodo 11-27-2007 09:44 PM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
[ QUOTE ]
One big problem about discussing the topic on here is that a lot of people are on the payroll through the sites or through affiliate programs, etc, so of course they are going to defend the present rip off system. Keep up the name calling. I'm not going to budge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dont have much to add, but thats a very good point.
Its pretty hard to find any other business where the affiliate get that much.

DMoogle 11-27-2007 09:44 PM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
[ QUOTE ]
In Nov 05, Party started taking $250,000 more per day. Didn't that hurt the games?

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure did. However, we seem to have different definitions of "killed". IMO, hurting != killing. For example, the other day I hurt myself when I stubbed my toe on my computer desk. BUT interestingly enough I didn't kill myself!

EDIT: BTW I'm not affiliated with any poker site.

STOPRAKEGREED 11-27-2007 10:20 PM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In Nov 05, Party started taking $250,000 more per day. Didn't that hurt the games?

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure did. However, we seem to have different definitions of "killed". IMO, hurting != killing. For example, the other day I hurt myself when I stubbed my toe on my computer desk. BUT interestingly enough I didn't kill myself!



[/ QUOTE ]

This adds nothing to the debate. Absurd point really.

DMoogle 11-27-2007 10:27 PM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
IMO if the games are killed, that means that either people stopped playing them or they became unbeatable. That rake increase did neither.

STOPRAKEGREED 11-27-2007 10:29 PM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
the number of people beating the game for anything significant has dropped by about 80%

DMoogle 11-27-2007 10:36 PM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
[ QUOTE ]
the number of people beating the game for anything significant has dropped by about 80%

[/ QUOTE ]
Can you back this up? Most people who beat the game "for anything significant" play at stakes where the rake is a much smaller percentage of the average pot size.

Wires 11-27-2007 10:42 PM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
[ QUOTE ]
OP has played every limit from .01-.02 up to 100-200, mostly multi tabling 15-30 online and mostly 15-30 live

[/ QUOTE ]

no you don't.


There is no way someone whining and complaining about micro limit rake and who thinks .5/1 PLO is a mid stakes game has even sniffed a 15/30 or greater table.

Plus you started the thread I link below which no one with your "experience" would post.

Basic 5/10 NL Question


And I still think you're nutty.


Edit: I don't post or even visit this forum very often anymore but it's nice to see things haven't really changed. Bunch of veterans helping each other out as well as a bunch of sub 200 post crazies with wacked out conspiracy theories and looney ideas that will improve online poker (which is still thriving and profitable, btw).

gg Internet Gaming Forum. gg.

STOPRAKEGREED 11-27-2007 10:43 PM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
yeah, i'll back it up. about 4 years ago almost all of the top san francisco pros were playing online. now about 80%, roughly 40 out of 50, have given it up. online is now just a bad joke unless you are one of the very best players.

edfurlong 11-27-2007 10:47 PM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
About 4 years ago I could beat online poker, people learning hand rankings probably had more of an impact than the rake.

STOPRAKEGREED 11-27-2007 10:50 PM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OP has played every limit from .01-.02 up to 100-200, mostly multi tabling 15-30 online and mostly 15-30 live

[/ QUOTE ]

no you don't.


There is no way someone whining and complaining about micro limit rake and who thinks .5/1 PLO is a mid stakes game has even sniffed a 15/30 or greater table.

Plus you started the thread I link below which no one with your "experience" would post.

Basic 5/10 NL Question


And I still think you're nutty.

[/ QUOTE ]

More childish name calling. I put the micro stakes example in because it was the most extreme. My experience at micro stakes comes only from playing their while setting up poker ace hud layouts. As for .50-1 plo, i'm happy to call it low limit. That's fine. But it is a limit where multitabling you can easily win or lose 500 in a day. Comparable to a 6-12 game limit holdem game in a casino. What stakes is 6-12--small or mid. It doesn't matter. The fact is that the amount of money that live ones have to lose is limited and the sites prefer that the live ones play in small games where the rake is enormous. Without that enormous rake some of the live ones would run it up occasionally and blow it in bigger games. But that rarely happens. You can call me names till your blue in the face. I COULDN'T CARE LESS. The fact is at least 80% fewer people make money online than was the case 3 years ago. THE RAKE KILLED ONLINE. It is basically a joke now.

STOPRAKEGREED 11-27-2007 10:55 PM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OP has played every limit from .01-.02 up to 100-200, mostly multi tabling 15-30 online and mostly 15-30 live

[/ QUOTE ]

no you don't.


There is no way someone whining and complaining about micro limit rake and who thinks .5/1 PLO is a mid stakes game has even sniffed a 15/30 or greater table.

Plus you started the thread I link below which no one with your "experience" would post.

Basic 5/10 NL Question


And I still think you're nutty.


Edit: I don't post or even visit this forum very often anymore but it's nice to see things haven't really changed. Bunch of veterans helping each other out as well as a bunch of sub 200 post crazies with wacked out conspiracy theories and looney ideas that will improve online poker (which is still thriving and profitable, btw).

gg Internet Gaming Forum. gg.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you value yourself based on the number of posts you have made here? lol. What a joke. This is not the only forum online you know. Online poker rooms make money. FEW PLAYERS DO. VERY FEW.

Wires 11-27-2007 10:56 PM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
[ QUOTE ]
About 4 years ago I could beat online poker, people learning hand rankings probably had more of an impact than the rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true, ed. I started back in 2001 (maybe 02) with a PokerRoom account. Poker wasn't all over television yet and people had no clue about what constituted a good starting hand - players were splashing around with anything. I spent most of that time playing 5/10 and 10/20 LimitLHE and I don't think things were ever better.

I'm a much better player now than I was back then but I don't make as much. I'm getting all misty eyed just thinking about it.

The OP's assertion rake is killing the .01/.02 game is awesome though.

STOPRAKEGREED 11-27-2007 11:02 PM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
OF course people got better. Of course they read books and learned. But that doesn't explain why the games really suck bad. The amount of rake that any player pays online for an hour is considerably more than a casino. The live one has say $2000 to blow a month and maybe 20 hours to do it. Live he'll lose $350 in rake in 20 hours. Online, he'll lose more like half in rake if he plays two games at once. That is $650 less for the pro to make.

STOPRAKEGREED 11-27-2007 11:05 PM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
A point that I made originally that none of the name callers has picked up on is the point about having to cut a lot of checks. This is probably the biggest headache for the sites. UB sends checks from several different banks. Much easier to just keep the rake high.

edfurlong 11-27-2007 11:12 PM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
[ QUOTE ]
A point that I made originally that none of the name callers has picked up on is the point about having to cut a lot of checks. This is probably the biggest headache for the sites. UB sends checks from several different banks. Much easier to just keep the rake high.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome.

STOPRAKEGREED 11-27-2007 11:14 PM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
IT STILL SUCKS BECAUSE OF THE RAKE. BASTA!

DMoogle 11-27-2007 11:49 PM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
The primary reason games are "dead" (which I disagree with) is because online players are EXTRAORDINARILY better than they were a couple of years ago.

PoorLawyer 11-28-2007 12:10 AM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
[ QUOTE ]
yeah, i'll back it up. about 4 years ago almost all of the top san francisco pros were playing online. now about 80%, roughly 40 out of 50, have given it up. online is now just a bad joke unless you are one of the very best players.

[/ QUOTE ]

nice sample size.

Why are people even responding to this thread? Oh wait, I just did too. damn, foiled again.

augie_ 11-28-2007 12:56 AM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
op i was hoping you were gonna say "cuz people be checkraisin' me" or something

WhoIam 11-28-2007 01:51 AM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
If only there were a way of getting some of this rake back, then maybe it wouldn't be killing the games.

AbreuTime 11-28-2007 01:56 AM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
The rake is capped at 1/20 of a big blind at my stakes. That ain't bad. Maybe you just need to move up in higher stakes. The rake stays pretty much the same, so it becomes less on a percentage basis. So if you're winning, you can win more!

Good luck!

Albert Silver 11-28-2007 01:57 AM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
[ QUOTE ]
If only there were a way of getting some of this rake back, then maybe it wouldn't be killing the games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but that's not possible, let's not dream.

I mean, do you know how much rake they take out of a $2000 pot in the $0.01/0.02 mid-stakes games? It's just ridiculous.

STOPRAKEGREED 11-28-2007 03:36 AM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
I just pulled up a 6 max 3-6 game on fulltilt. They are getting about a hundred hands an hour and the rake is up to $3. So they are taking off about $150/hror $25/hr for each player. If you don't think this is a joke, you are a fool or on the payroll. FOOLS! THIS IS WHY ONLINE SUCKS.

thac 11-28-2007 04:11 AM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
As opposed to a 1/2 game at a casino that gets 20 hands an hour with the rake capped at $4 (when the pot reaches $20 [read: always]), that's like $50/hr assuming a few hands don't get the max rake, and that's only 1/2! Then include dealer tokes + waitress tips too.

sputum 11-28-2007 04:44 AM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
Just set yourself rake limits and stop playing when you hit them. If you can't do this I recommend GA

blackize 11-28-2007 04:46 AM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
[ QUOTE ]
If you don't think this is a joke, you are a fool or on the payroll. FOOLS! THIS IS WHY ONLINE SUCKS.

[/ QUOTE ]

I prithee sir, what is the solution to the "rake greed" "problem"?

BiggieFats 11-28-2007 04:52 AM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I just pulled up a 6 max 3-6 game on fulltilt. They are getting about a hundred hands an hour and the rake is up to $3. So they are taking off about $150/hror $25/hr for each player. If you don't think this is a joke, you are a fool or on the payroll. FOOLS! THIS IS WHY ONLINE SUCKS.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you torture yourself then if it sucks so much? Just get all your money out, uninstall all the poker software from your computer and your problem is solved. End of thread.

JamieO 11-28-2007 04:54 AM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
Hey stop, while i dont agree with a lot of what youve said, i do agree that the rake is far too high in most online games.

However, its not even worth arguing about it on here. Awhile ago, I merely brought up the point that IMO the "standard" rake that is common online today is not optimal for the growth of the games and the future of online poker. For this i was flamed repeatedly.

This forum is full of shills who will try to make you feel stupid for questioning the profit margin of the major poker sites. They feel that the rake is great the way it is for two reasons. Either they are affiliated with some site, or they make a living playing on a site and think that those who complain about the rake are just poor players. Then they talk about rakeback and try to equate rakeback or fpps with a lower rake which is just stupid.

You will not be able to have a constructive conversation on this forum about this subject. No one seems to care that the low limits are where beginners start out and that right now it is harder than ever for them to win. They just say "move up limits then you will hardly notice the rake... blah blah blah." Nevermind the fish who are getting picked apart by the rake at the lower limits. These fish have a far smaller chance of going on a hot streak winning a little bit, and then donking it off at the bigger tables.

Anyways IMO the combination of the high rake and the better players is making for a far lower percentage of winning players at the lower levels. AND THIS IS VERY BAD FOR THE GAME.

FLAME ON SHILLS.

JamieO 11-28-2007 04:58 AM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
RAKEBACK IS NOT THE CURE FOR ABSURD RAKE

Bobo Fett 11-28-2007 05:51 AM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
[ QUOTE ]
One big problem about discussing the topic on here is that a lot of people are on the payroll through the sites or through affiliate programs, etc, so of course they are going to defend the present rip off system. Keep up the name calling. I'm not going to budge.

[/ QUOTE ]
And there's the problem with many of these threads. The OPs don't start these threads to have a discussion, this is just a soap box for them. No amount of logic will sway them, they have come here convinced of something, and think we all need to know about it.

blackize 11-28-2007 06:11 AM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
[ QUOTE ]

RAKEBACK IS NOT THE CURE FOR ABSURD RAKE

[/ QUOTE ]

What is then and how do we get it?

Bobo Fett 11-28-2007 06:16 AM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

RAKEBACK IS NOT THE CURE FOR ABSURD RAKE

[/ QUOTE ]

What is then and how do we get it?

[/ QUOTE ]
Radiation therapy. Jamie sticks his head in the microwave, LDO.

Rek 11-28-2007 06:51 AM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Hey stop, while i dont agree with a lot of what youve said, i do agree that the rake is far too high in most online games.

However, its not even worth arguing about it on here. Awhile ago, I merely brought up the point that IMO the "standard" rake that is common online today is not optimal for the growth of the games and the future of online poker. For this i was flamed repeatedly.

This forum is full of shills who will try to make you feel stupid for questioning the profit margin of the major poker sites. They feel that the rake is great the way it is for two reasons. Either they are affiliated with some site, or they make a living playing on a site and think that those who complain about the rake are just poor players. Then they talk about rakeback and try to equate rakeback or fpps with a lower rake which is just stupid.

You will not be able to have a constructive conversation on this forum about this subject. No one seems to care that the low limits are where beginners start out and that right now it is harder than ever for them to win. They just say "move up limits then you will hardly notice the rake... blah blah blah." Nevermind the fish who are getting picked apart by the rake at the lower limits. These fish have a far smaller chance of going on a hot streak winning a little bit, and then donking it off at the bigger tables.

Anyways IMO the combination of the high rake and the better players is making for a far lower percentage of winning players at the lower levels. AND THIS IS VERY BAD FOR THE GAME.

FLAME ON SHILLS.

[/ QUOTE ]
I am not affiliated to anything and I would like to see rake as low as possible. All players would benefit by greater profit or less losses. The vast majority of all posters here would like the same thing.

If you want a sensible discussion then post your view but be open minded as to the responses you get, especially when they don't agree with you.

Poker sites are there for one reason - to make profit for the sites owners. They are not a charity and noboby forces you to play there. As with any business there is a cost to pay for their services or goods. The art of a good business is to find the optimum level to charge their customers. Poker sites seem to have decided that their rake structure achieves their aims. Judging by the amount of traffic on poker sites I think they are probably right with the rake structure.

Would I like it cheaper? of course - then again I want cheaper car insurance, travel, food, drink, houses, clothes, mobile phones, internet connection, furntiture........................................ ........etc. It is a never ending list - apart from cheap women. I don't like them.

Bobo Fett 11-28-2007 07:37 AM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
[ QUOTE ]
If you want a sensible discussion then post your view but be open minded as to the responses you get, especially when they don't agree with you.

[/ QUOTE ]
QFT.

[ QUOTE ]
apart from cheap women. I don't like them.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's not what I heard. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

pricklypete 11-28-2007 07:42 AM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
I would like to know how much the big poker sites take in.

El_Hombre_Grande 11-28-2007 07:54 AM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
[ QUOTE ]
About 4 years ago I could beat online poker, people learning hand rankings probably had more of an impact than the rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the(censored) unfortunate (censored) truth. There were people on party playing 5/10 limit who didn't know whether a flush or a straight was the winner. Well, the unfortunate part is they either went broke or got better.

El_Hombre_Grande 11-28-2007 08:08 AM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
Rek hit the nail on the head.

I want free rake. I'm not an affiliate, I'm a winning player (to be distinguished from "whining player.)It doesn't take a genius to understand that lower rake is better than higher rake, but careful. That money is spent to promote and advertise games, and find fish.

You offer a "theory" (I'm being kind) with no evidence and no solution. You are being flamed (rightfully) for this, not because anyone wants to pay more rake rather than less.

I am also of the belief that I should be provided with free lawyers, guns, and money but thusfar the bar associations, gun dealers and US Treasury seem to feel different. Why should you expect an offshore poker site to be any more charitable?

OnYourBike 11-28-2007 08:51 AM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
Play live if you think online rake it too high.

TylerD 11-28-2007 11:15 AM

Re: Why online poker sucks.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[x] OP has never played live 2/4 limit?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bob - you can't have a question mark in those [x] things, it doesn't work. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]


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