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-   -   why does this forum care so much about religion (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=521521)

yukoncpa 10-14-2007 12:37 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
I'm certain you see how foolish your point is but I offer you a chance to pull this one out. Get out the New Testament and locate that passage or Gospel that would even tangentally suggest the extermination of all the Jews, Gypsies and ho.mosexuals and quote it here. Then you can put Hitler in the Christian column.


[/ QUOTE ]

Did God change his mind about killing these folk come New Testament times? What about his original commands:

Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

vhawk01 10-14-2007 12:53 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm certain you see how foolish your point is but I offer you a chance to pull this one out. Get out the New Testament and locate that passage or Gospel that would even tangentally suggest the extermination of all the Jews, Gypsies and ho.mosexuals and quote it here. Then you can put Hitler in the Christian column.


[/ QUOTE ]

Did God change his mind about killing these folk come New Testament times? What about his original commands:

Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

[/ QUOTE ]

And honestly, who's killed more Jews than God?

InTheDark 10-14-2007 08:38 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm certain you see how foolish your point is but I offer you a chance to pull this one out. Get out the New Testament and locate that passage or Gospel that would even tangentally suggest the extermination of all the Jews, Gypsies and ho.mosexuals and quote it here. Then you can put Hitler in the Christian column.


[/ QUOTE ]

Did God change his mind about killing these folk come New Testament times? What about his original commands:

Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

[/ QUOTE ]

This really blows me away. This joker is so commited to this labeling of Hitler that he did a little research to make a totally worthless point, not even a glancing blow. That, for me, sums up the strength of most atheists and their arguments.

InTheDark 10-14-2007 08:41 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

* Hitler is unacceptable for this 'honor'. It's difficult to point to any substantial Christian philosophy guiding his action.

[/ QUOTE ]

"The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life." - Adolf Hitler in a speech in 1933.

http://z.about.com/d/history1900s/1/0/Z/P/hitler19.jpg



[/ QUOTE ]

So if I understand your point, it's simply what I say and whom I stand next to, not what I do, upon which I'll be judged?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I'm sure the Catholic clergy who were glad-handing Adolf Hitler were doing it completely against their will, and not because they supported his government.

So I guess they were simply cowardly hypocrites, rather than accomplices. Glad we cleared that up.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm certain you see how foolish your point is but I offer you a chance to pull this one out. Get out the New Testament and locate that passage or Gospel that would even tangentally suggest the extermination of all the Jews, Gypsies and ho.mosexuals and quote it here. Then you can put Hitler in the Christian column.

[/ QUOTE ]

My mistake. Obviously the Catholic church has always welcomed homosexuals and Jews with open arms.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice deflection. This wasn't about the Catholic church. You need to find some Christian philosophy in Hitler's acts. You won't. Buh bye.

InTheDark 10-14-2007 08:52 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
The point Sam Harris made in a speech the other day about the branding of "atheist" being no good is relevant to this argument. What luckyme and I want is the universal application of skepticism and reason, not atheism. There is no society or regime in history that has ever gone bad as a result of being too reasonable or too skeptical.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're truly the reasonable man you suggest you are, then you should make the effort to do a fair analysis of the successes scored by Christian countries VS non-Christian countries VS atheist countries during the past 100 years. If you do, it's game, set, match on most any metric.

But you won't.

Hopey 10-14-2007 09:15 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

* Hitler is unacceptable for this 'honor'. It's difficult to point to any substantial Christian philosophy guiding his action.

[/ QUOTE ]

"The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life." - Adolf Hitler in a speech in 1933.

http://z.about.com/d/history1900s/1/0/Z/P/hitler19.jpg



[/ QUOTE ]

So if I understand your point, it's simply what I say and whom I stand next to, not what I do, upon which I'll be judged?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I'm sure the Catholic clergy who were glad-handing Adolf Hitler were doing it completely against their will, and not because they supported his government.

So I guess they were simply cowardly hypocrites, rather than accomplices. Glad we cleared that up.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm certain you see how foolish your point is but I offer you a chance to pull this one out. Get out the New Testament and locate that passage or Gospel that would even tangentally suggest the extermination of all the Jews, Gypsies and ho.mosexuals and quote it here. Then you can put Hitler in the Christian column.

[/ QUOTE ]

My mistake. Obviously the Catholic church has always welcomed homosexuals and Jews with open arms.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice deflection. This wasn't about the Catholic church. You need to find some Christian philosophy in Hitler's acts. You won't. Buh bye.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Catholic church was complicit in Hitler's rise to power and the subsequent persecution of Jews and homosexuals. If you don't see this, you're either stupid or dishonest. I'll leave it to you to decide which description fits you best.

Hopey 10-14-2007 09:17 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The point Sam Harris made in a speech the other day about the branding of "atheist" being no good is relevant to this argument. What luckyme and I want is the universal application of skepticism and reason, not atheism. There is no society or regime in history that has ever gone bad as a result of being too reasonable or too skeptical.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're truly the reasonable man you suggest you are, then you should make the effort to do a fair analysis of the successes scored by Christian countries VS non-Christian countries VS atheist countries during the past 100 years. If you do, it's game, set, match on most any metric.


[/ QUOTE ]

Since you can't seem to agree on what constitutes a "Christian country", this would be a pointless exercise.

vhawk01 10-14-2007 10:20 AM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The point Sam Harris made in a speech the other day about the branding of "atheist" being no good is relevant to this argument. What luckyme and I want is the universal application of skepticism and reason, not atheism. There is no society or regime in history that has ever gone bad as a result of being too reasonable or too skeptical.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're truly the reasonable man you suggest you are, then you should make the effort to do a fair analysis of the successes scored by Christian countries VS non-Christian countries VS atheist countries during the past 100 years. If you do, it's game, set, match on most any metric.

But you won't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its like you can't read? Nothing in his post said anything about non-Christian socities. He said reason and skepticism.

ChrisV 10-14-2007 12:15 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The point Sam Harris made in a speech the other day about the branding of "atheist" being no good is relevant to this argument. What luckyme and I want is the universal application of skepticism and reason, not atheism. There is no society or regime in history that has ever gone bad as a result of being too reasonable or too skeptical.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're truly the reasonable man you suggest you are, then you should make the effort to do a fair analysis of the successes scored by Christian countries VS non-Christian countries VS atheist countries during the past 100 years. If you do, it's game, set, match on most any metric.

But you won't.

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as I know, there aren't any countries which enshrine Christianity as the national religion (I might be wrong about that, but anyway there aren't any major examples).

If you just mean nations with a high percentage of devoted Christians, I think you might lose. Check out this list of countries ranked by church attendance; there are a few successful countries in the top 20 or so (Ireland, the US, Belgium, Canada, The Netherlands... if you really want to claim The Netherlands as a "Christian country"), but if you remove the ex-Communist countries from the bottom 30 or so, it's a who's who of successful countries. This suggests - shockingly enough - that it's Communism which wrecks your country, and that Christianity at best is irrelevant.

By the way, why are we restricting things to the last 100 years? Christianity shouldn't have changed in the last 2,000 years, being an eternal truth, so if Christianity is such a great foundation for a nation, shouldn't I be able to look at any period in history and find Christian nations to be virutous? But this isn't the case. Why, if I were a cynical man, I might be inclined to think this showed that (a) Christianity has nothing to do with the success of nations or that (b) Christian nations only became successful after Christianity was ameliorated a little by the use of reason and skepticism.

[ QUOTE ]
Nice deflection. This wasn't about the Catholic church. You need to find some Christian philosophy in Hitler's acts. You won't. Buh bye.

[/ QUOTE ]

We'll get started on that just as soon as you detail how it was people demanding too much factual evidence to back up claims who were the driving force behind the Stalin and Pol Pot regimes.

InTheDark 10-14-2007 07:41 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The point Sam Harris made in a speech the other day about the branding of "atheist" being no good is relevant to this argument. What luckyme and I want is the universal application of skepticism and reason, not atheism. There is no society or regime in history that has ever gone bad as a result of being too reasonable or too skeptical.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're truly the reasonable man you suggest you are, then you should make the effort to do a fair analysis of the successes scored by Christian countries VS non-Christian countries VS atheist countries during the past 100 years. If you do, it's game, set, match on most any metric.

But you won't.

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as I know, there aren't any countries which enshrine Christianity as the national religion (I might be wrong about that, but anyway there aren't any major examples).

If you just mean nations with a high percentage of devoted Christians, I think you might lose. Check out this list of countries ranked by church attendance; there are a few successful countries in the top 20 or so (Ireland, the US, Belgium, Canada, The Netherlands... if you really want to claim The Netherlands as a "Christian country"), but if you remove the ex-Communist countries from the bottom 30 or so, it's a who's who of successful countries. This suggests - shockingly enough - that it's Communism which wrecks your country, and that Christianity at best is irrelevant.

By the way, why are we restricting things to the last 100 years? Christianity shouldn't have changed in the last 2,000 years, being an eternal truth, so if Christianity is such a great foundation for a nation, shouldn't I be able to look at any period in history and find Christian nations to be virutous? But this isn't the case. Why, if I were a cynical man, I might be inclined to think this showed that (a) Christianity has nothing to do with the success of nations or that (b) Christian nations only became successful after Christianity was ameliorated a little by the use of reason and skepticism.

[ QUOTE ]
Nice deflection. This wasn't about the Catholic church. You need to find some Christian philosophy in Hitler's acts. You won't. Buh bye.

[/ QUOTE ]

We'll get started on that just as soon as you detail how it was people demanding too much factual evidence to back up claims who were the driving force behind the Stalin and Pol Pot regimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

THere are certainly definitional issues. But overall, the great ecomonic powers of today have serious Christian roots, perhaps with fading church attendance, but solid roots. Then look at personal freedom and rights for women. Christian rooted countries are far and away in the lead here. Islam is a female's nightmare, only slightly better if male. North Korea will be found at the bottom of every metric and I doubt there's much sanctioned religion.

You can parse it and spin it as your agenda warrants, but the easiest living is found under the shade tree of Christianity. Why do atheists loathe this fact so very much?

Lastly, Europe's shining star, the new and perhaps only future hope, Ireland, still atttends Christian church in huge numbers. There's reproducing as well, unlike the rest of Europe where societal slow suicide is the norm.


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