Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

Clearly, the solution is to take all those U.S. troops in Iraq and withdraw them by using them to invade Israel and Saudia Arabia, uniting Israeli and Arab in the struggle against American imperialism.

Bonus points if W installs his brother Jeb as king of Jerusalem.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

You:
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Building democracy in the Arab world is probably not acheived by letting Israel be left defenseless, as it is surruounded by less than friendly neighbors.

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You again:
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The reason why Israel is so strong militarily is strongly related to the military and economic help it receives from the US.

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So by giving them all that military and economic aid, they are no longer defenseless. In fact, they are the most powerful state in the Middle East. So why again must we continue to help defend their interests?

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

[ QUOTE ]
You:
[ QUOTE ]
Building democracy in the Arab world is probably not acheived by letting Israel be left defenseless, as it is surruounded by less than friendly neighbors.

[/ QUOTE ]

You again:
[ QUOTE ]
The reason why Israel is so strong militarily is strongly related to the military and economic help it receives from the US.

[/ QUOTE ]

So by giving them all that military and economic aid, they are no longer defenseless. In fact, they are the most powerful state in the Middle East. So why again must we continue to help defend their interests?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because those dirty aye-rabs will eat your babies.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

[ QUOTE ]
You:
[ QUOTE ]
Building democracy in the Arab world is probably not acheived by letting Israel be left defenseless, as it is surruounded by less than friendly neighbors.

[/ QUOTE ]

You again:
[ QUOTE ]
The reason why Israel is so strong militarily is strongly related to the military and economic help it receives from the US.

[/ QUOTE ]

So by giving them all that military and economic aid, they are no longer defenseless. In fact, they are the most powerful state in the Middle East. So why again must we continue to help defend their interests?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thier strength is based upon prior help and also the expected future help from the US. A lot of the aid that goes to Israel is used to buy American military equipment, and Israel and the US are cooperating strongly on the research and development of weapons so its not like the US is not getting anything out of it themselves. The approximatly 3b$ the US gives to Israel annualy cannot be counted solely as a loss, as the US get back from ISrael buying American equipment and the advantages of having a close partner to cooperate with in the the development of newer systems.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

Whilst I have no love for the Palestinian people, I think the tone of the OP is not helpful. The Palestinian people, through their own fault and not, are the biggest victims of this situation and Israelis are clearly not secure (as individuals) from terror.

I have discussed in previous threads why I think that peace has not been found and i dont want to get into another arguament regarding the minutiae of the various prior peace proceses. However, I will just say that there is zero chance of anything good coming from this new dialogue.

The key question is why is this happening now? My speculation is that bush wants some sort of peace process to deflect from the failure of the Iraq campaign (not likely to be succesful), to placate muslims and possibly build a coalition of arab states for a potential move against Iran (not likely to work), to leave a legacy of something good (as its unlikely to succeed, this wont work either). To be honest, im not sure why the US is pushing this as I cant believe that they believe it could be successful.

From the Israeli side, Olmert is grabbing at straws as he is the most unpopular Israeli Prime Minister in the country's history. He has no mandate for sweeping unilateral concessions to the Palestinians and is trying to placate the voting public by looking like he is doing something for peace. Sharon did the same thing, Barak also.

On the Palestinian side, Abbas is so weak that he cannot possibly follow through on anything he agrees on with the Israelis. He is virtually insignificant inside the Palestinian territories. Were he to agree to a genuine deal, he would probably be dead within the month.

Each side has its own reasons for going ahead with this process, none of which are that real peace is achievable or possible at the moment. Thats whats so sad about all this... and whats so dangerous. Every time hopes and feelings are raised and failure ensues, a spasm of violence is the consequence. This was seen most recently with the failure of Oslo and the start of the second intifada. The games these idiots are playing will eventually mean the death of many Israelis and Palestinians.

Is anyone seriously thinking that the weakest Israeli leader ever and the weakest Palestinian leader ever can get together with the most hated US president ever and somehow succeed where so many have failed in the past!?

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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In the 1993 Oslo accords, the Arabs welch on the deal by refusing to honor the terms while accepting the land-for-peace (the Gaza strip) that Israel gave. Hamas has rejected the Oslo accords while at the same time accepting the land that Israel gave up.... Again, I admire Hamas for their honesty as oppose to the lies from Fatah.

Land for peace has never worked with the Arabs, yet Bush is STUUU-PID enough to believe it will work this time...

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I agree with your first paragraph. Most Israelis see very little difference in practice between Hamas and Fatah. They have both been as active as each other in terrorism against Israelis, however at least Hamas is honest about its beliefs and vision of the future. Fatah, with its leaders welcomed in international circles and having been labeled a possible peace "partner", are trying to be seen as respectable at the same time as they continue to use terror against Israeli ciivlians. The only reason they "recognised" Israel was because they were virtually dead before Oslo and saw it as a way to return to the Palestinian terrtories from exile and to regain the power they once had. They did this superbly with Fatah surpressing Palestinians and stealing huge amounts of money sent for their aid. Their plan of destruction by stages was a realisation that they would never win a military victory against Israel.

Regarding land for peace, I disagree. The peace deal between Israel and Egypt was based on this premise and Israel withdrew from its settlements in the Sinai. Egypt was thrown out of the Arab league for this, consistent with Arab states principles of not making any deals with Israel and only considering force as a way of regaining Arab land which continues to this day. Of course, Sadat, after becoming the first Arab leader to visit Jerusalem and speak in the Knesset and finalising the peace deal to return all captured Egyptian territory, was assasinated.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

The sad truth here is that so far, nobody has been able to find an equitable solution.

One definition of insanity (this time I'm being serious) is repeating the same action over and over again and expecting a different outcome.

Are we wearing foolishly rose-colored glasses by thinking that there is one iota of hope for an equitable solution?

If logic and reason tell us there is no solution, does logic and reason also tell us to pick a side and fight for victory?

The fact that I can empathize with Palestinian Arabs (were I born in Gaza and had to live their lives,I'd want to kill Israeli's, too) doesw not change the fact that the israelis are the good guys and the Arabs are the bad guys.

It may not make me feel very good about myself, but I agree with Felix.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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Their plan of destruction by stages was a realisation that they would never win a military victory against Israel.

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So true.....


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Regarding land for peace, I disagree. The peace deal between Israel and Egypt was based on this premise and Israel withdrew from its settlements in the Sinai.

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With the land-for-peace strategy, once the land is returned, there is no further incentive for the Arabs to honor the deal (other than perhaps the fear of the IDF). The Camp David accords is a land/money-for-peace deal so it has a greater chance of long term success.

Egypt is paid bribes (aka foreign aid) annually by the USA to honor the Camp David Accords. This foreign aid is critical in fattening up Swiss bank accounts of critical Egyptian leaders. Their leaders value money more than the wishes of the Egyptian people. Take away the bribes and I'm confident Egypt will welch on the rest of the agreement... The Egyptian people hate Israel... If their govt ever gets overthrown, then the will of the Egyptian people will compel them to go to war...

Regarding Jimmy Carter, he is no great peace maker. He is just an excellent briber. BTW, it was Jimmy Carter that made it a crime for US businesses to pay bribes to foreign businesses. In some parts of the world, bribery is a way of life and this holier-than-thou law hurts US businesses (or forces them to be more discrete with their bribes). But it is OK for Jimmy Carter to pay bribes to Israel and Egypt. Do as I say and not as I do.....

Personal story:
I use to work for a communications company and I was informed that Zimbabwe was the only country in Africa which did not have a cell phone network. The reason I was told was that Robert Mugabe was soliciting outrageous bribes for companies to operate a celluar phone network in his country. So outrageous it was not profitable to do business with him. This story is about 10 years old so perhaps things have changed but it illustrates in some countries that you pay bribes or you are not allowed to do business there...

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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3. Relocate all Arabs inside Israel and dump them on the borders of Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon. Let their Arab brothers give them sanctuary.

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wtf? why do you want to turn a reasonable society into one that you claimed to represent that of the enemy?

israel should just clean their hands and do something sensible with the occupied territories and then guard their home like no other. They have to stop playing into the terrorist game and get on with their lives.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

[ QUOTE ]
With the land-for-peace strategy, once the land is returned, there is no further incentive for the Arabs to honor the deal (other than perhaps the fear of the IDF).

[/ QUOTE ]

Whilst I think it is a little more complicated, this is unfortunately true. The Egyptians effectively facilitated the Hamas takeover of Gaza (and their continued supremacy there) by doing nothing to stop the rampant weapons and explosive smuggling through their border (with Gaza). Apart from possibly Jordan, the Arab countries are more than happy to encourage and support the ongoing war against Israel by proxy. This is one of the main reasons I opposed the Gaza withdrawal at the time - the absence of the IDF made it inevitable that Hamas would increase its power, take over and make a future peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians in general almost impossible.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

[ QUOTE ]
wtf? why do you want to turn a reasonable society into one that you claimed to represent that of the enemy?


[/ QUOTE ]
Cruelty is the only solution to this problem.....
Diplomacy alone will NEVER work....

Have you not seen excerpts of the text books books that the Arabs use to 'educate' their children? The anti-semitism they inject into the minds of their children would make it clear why these children will grow up hating Israel for the rest of their lives. They even use a "Mickey Mouse" character as a teaching tool to spread hatred in the minds of the palestinian children. An entire 2+2 topic could be made just on the palestinian 'education' system. The Nazis had their Hitler Youth to teach hatred towards the untermensch. The palestinians have taken these tactics and 'improved' upon them. The palestinian children of today will be the palestinian monsters of tomorrow...

Re: A Jimmy Carter Peace.....
 

[ QUOTE ]
But nice try blaming a Democrat from 28 years ago for our current foreign aid program.

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Jimmy Carter is most responsible for the terrorist theocracy ruling Iran today. His undermining of the Shah was an act of gross incompetance and stupidity. The world would be a much more peaceful place if the Shah's regime was still in power keeping those religious nuts under his thumb. Instead there is a good chance a nuclear war will occur between Iran, Israel, and the USA. The muslims don't properly fear a nuclear war because they believe they will have 72 virgins waiting for them.... We have not seen the worst of Jimmy Carter's idiocy on Iran...

The Repubs deserve some responsibility for the Taliban.
But even in retrospect I think funding the Afghan insurgents was the proper play to teach those bastard Russian commies a lesson for their intervention in Vietnam. Payback is a bitch and the Russians reaped the karma they sowed. The only mistake the Repubs made was not funding the Northern Alliance to help them defeat the Taliban after the Soviets left Afghanistan. But hindsight is 20/20. No one knew the Taliban would become so troublesome to other nations outside their borders. But undermining an American ally like the Shah of iran was the epitome of stupidity....

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wtf? why do you want to turn a reasonable society into one that you claimed to represent that of the enemy?


[/ QUOTE ]
Cruelty is the only solution to this problem.....
Diplomacy alone will NEVER work....

Have you not seen excerpts of the text books books that the Arabs use to 'educate' their children? The anti-semitism they inject into the minds of their children would make it clear why these children will grow up hating Israel for the rest of their lives. They even use a "Mickey Mouse" character as a teaching tool to spread hatred in the minds of the palestinian children. An entire 2+2 topic could be made just on the palestinian 'education' system. The Nazis had their Hitler Youth to teach hatred towards the untermensch. The palestinians have taken these tactics and 'improved' upon them. The palestinian children of today will be the palestinian monsters of tomorrow...

[/ QUOTE ]

yes i've seen all of this. jewish children are subject to a lot of this non sense too. if israel gave back the territories jewish terrorist could become a problem, for example, because many are as fanatically indoctrinated. most of jewish fanatics do their bidding through the military though while the other side does this through less formal organizations. if they lost military support i think youd see some serious jewish resistance groups.

the point is the education like this increases the more both sides feed each others hatred. Israel should have the moral ground by having the moral ground, not by destroying it. How can israel claim to be the good guy when they dont practice wat they preach. Why does israel hold entire lebanon responsible for the crimes a few, isnt this what terrorists do? why does israel hold land and do nothing with it but deprive and enrage the lives of millions? why have they continued land expansion in undeserved territory rather than maintaining the deserved territory?

from what i can see from your analysis is not to send arabs into the distance but rather to start exterminating all of them.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

http://www.peacefaq.com/campdavid.html
This site has some decent examples of Egypt's violations of the Camp David Accords.
"After Egyptian dictator Anwar Sadat's death, his successor Hosni Mubarak discovered that Egypt could ignore its peace treaty obligations to Israel with impunity. Sadat had signed over 50 agreements and amendments to the Camp David Accords, which spelled out in great detail normalization of relations with Israel. These included trade, tourism, science, cultural and other attributes of peaceful relations. The late Menachem Begin, of blessed memory, fully believed that his sacrifice of Sinai, with its air bases and oil, was worth the inauguration of peaceful relations with the most important country in the Arab world.
With every passing year, it became clearer to Mubarak that the Israelis were too timid to protest Egyptian violations. It also became clear that America would continue to supply aid in the billions of dollars to Egypt, despite Egypt's obvious violations of their most solemn commitments to both President Jimmy Carter and Begin.

From this experience Mubarak devised the "Mubarak gambit," which sets out the principle that an Arab country can promise Israel peace and full normalization as a negotiating tactic in order to force an Israeli withdrawal from territory. Then after the territory is recovered, the Arab country can ignore the normalization part of any agreement."

- Bernard J. Shapiro, in The Caucus Current, October 1994

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why does israel hold entire lebanon responsible for the crimes a few, isnt this what terrorists do?

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Your son is in your house shooting at mine. You won't do anything because you say you fear he'll shoot you. So I come through your door and you object to my travelling over your property to get to your son. Then when I do so anyway you object to my shooting your son and think I should use other means. So to me you are responsible to some degree. And it doesn't matter if you do have a legitimate fear your son will shoot you if you intervene, because he's *your* son. It's your house and you should keep it in order if you don't like the means others use. Note this all started because *your* son was shooting into *my* property.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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why have they continued land expansion in undeserved territory rather than maintaining the deserved territory?

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They won a war which they didn't morally initiate in 1967 since the Arabs were planning to attack first. And they won another war in 1973 when they did subject themselves to allowing the Arabs to attack first even though they knew it was coming. So they were morally in the right in those wars and took land in reparation for the wrongs against them. Starting and losing wars have consequences but the Arabs and their apologists want to be able to strike Israel and then go back to the status quo when they get stomped instead of having some permanent consequence meted out to them in punishment. Pretty sweet deal if Israel is sucker enough to go for it.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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yes i've seen all of this. jewish children are subject to a lot of this non sense too.

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Yikes....moral equivalism alert!
Any Israeli propaganda is not even on the same map with what the palestinians do to teach their children. This is of course assumes I accept your premise (which I do not). Your statement is like saying a person who starts a schoolyard fight is equally guilty as a mass murdering serial killer. Both commit violence. And "murder is just a common assault with unfortunate consequences". Yes? (a quote from Horace Rumpole, the world's greatest defense lawyer).


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Why does israel hold entire lebanon responsible for the crimes a few, isnt this what terrorists do?

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No...terrorism is the policy of INTENTIONALLY targeting civilians. The palestinians are notorius for setting up mortars in civilian neighborhoods. When Israeli fires back, then the palestinians exploit the deaths of civilians which they are primarily responsible for...

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from what i can see from your analysis is not to send arabs into the distance but rather to start exterminating all of them.

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Expelling all the Arabs in Israel will be sufficient....

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Why does israel hold entire lebanon responsible for the crimes a few, isnt this what terrorists do?

[/ QUOTE ]


Your son is in your house shooting at mine. You won't do anything because you say you fear he'll shoot you. So I come through your door and you object to my travelling over your property to get to your son. Then when I do so anyway you object to my shooting your son and think I should use other means. So to me you are responsible to some degree. And it doesn't matter if you do have a legitimate fear your son will shoot you if you intervene, because he's *your* son. It's your house and you should keep it in order if you don't like the means others use. Note this all started because *your* son was shooting into *my* property.

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your analogy isnt close. Israel never attempted to go after those soley responsible. They only gave people the chance to object to going after them entirely. They had no purpose in going to the extent they did and punishing endless non-responsible individuals.

this is as stupid as placing sanctions on iran and holding the entire iranian nation responsible for the crimes of a few.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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this is as stupid as placing sanctions on iran and holding the entire iranian nation responsible for the crimes of a few.

[/ QUOTE ]


But with Iran we aren't talking about the actions of a few isolated citizens even, but those of the *government*. And it's *their* government so if the Iranians don't want the consequences that come from the actions of *their* government then they should do something about. And the fact that they would put their lives in jeopardy to do so isn't *our* problem.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why does israel hold entire lebanon responsible for the crimes a few, isnt this what terrorists do?

[/ QUOTE ]


Your son is in your house shooting at mine. You won't do anything because you say you fear he'll shoot you. So I come through your door and you object to my travelling over your property to get to your son. Then when I do so anyway you object to my shooting your son and think I should use other means. So to me you are responsible to some degree. And it doesn't matter if you do have a legitimate fear your son will shoot you if you intervene, because he's *your* son. It's your house and you should keep it in order if you don't like the means others use. Note this all started because *your* son was shooting into *my* property.

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your analogy isnt close. Israel never attempted to go after those soley responsible. They only gave people the chance to object to going after them entirely. They had no purpose in going to the extent they did and punishing endless non-responsible individuals.

[/ QUOTE ]


Lebanon has a choice. They can either put *their* house in order, or Israel will do so. If they can't or won't *for whatever reason*, then they shouldn't bitch about the means that Israel uses.

And you are acting as if Israel can surgically strike at Hamas which is a large organization and one that purposely locates its resources in centers of population to deter attack. You are blaming the victim and it's disgusting.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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[ QUOTE ]
this is as stupid as placing sanctions on iran and holding the entire iranian nation responsible for the crimes of a few.

[/ QUOTE ]


But with Iran we aren't talking about the actions of a few isolated citizens even, but those of the *government*. And it's *their* government so if the Iranians don't want the consequences that come from the actions of *their* government then they should do something about. And the fact that they would put their lives in jeopardy to do so isn't *our* problem.

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lets think a little deeper than these simple labels. this our world so we must be responsible for the crimes of our world and should implode ourselves as punishment?

iran has a very young and pro western population. the government and their supporters are more limited by the day and the other side will do something about if we stop getting in the way and helping the government gain support by not recognizing our allies and making false and generalized groupings and sentences.

iran would never have adopted the mullahs and allowed them to maintain their power if we weren't messing around.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

[ QUOTE ]
iran has a very young and pro western population. the government and their supporters are more limited by the day and the other side will do something about if we stop getting in the way and helping the government gain support by not recognizing our allies and making false and generalized groupings and sentences.

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Yeah if we just stop defending ourselves and demanding Iran doesn't perpetrate or fund terrorist actions or attacks on other nations, then those mythical "moderate pro-western" types will bring about a change in their government. Sorry but I'm not accepting your offer to buy the mid-east version of the Brooklyn Bridge.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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if we just stop defending ourselves and demanding Iran doesn't perpetrate or fund terrorist actions or attacks on other nations, then those mythical "moderate pro-western" types will bring about a change in their government.

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They were making progress toward this until Iran joined the Axis of Evil with their moderate democratically elected president.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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They were making progress toward this until Iran joined the Axis of Evil with their moderate democratically elected president.

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"moderate"? Hahahaha. Nice way of skewing the standard. On a scale of 1 to 10, "8" is a moderate because it's further away from the extreme, even though it is further yet from the true middle. This isn't a bell curve in one of your college classes, it's an absolute scale.

When any extremist organization/country puts one of its *relatively* "moderate" (i.e. less extreme but still extreme) members out front as its mouthpiece, while the real power is still wielded by the most extreme, that isn't any true indication of change.

It's actions and substance that matter and not rhetoric and appearances.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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[ QUOTE ]
if we just stop defending ourselves and demanding Iran doesn't perpetrate or fund terrorist actions or attacks on other nations, then those mythical "moderate pro-western" types will bring about a change in their government.

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They were making progress toward this until Iran joined the Axis of Evil with their [sarcasm]moderate democratically elected president[/sarcasm].

[/ QUOTE ]

You forgot the sarcasm tags right??

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

[ QUOTE ]
yes i've seen all of this. jewish children are subject to a lot of this non sense too. if israel gave back the territories jewish terrorist could become a problem, for example, because many are as fanatically indoctrinated. most of jewish fanatics do their bidding through the military though while the other side does this through less formal organizations. if they lost military support i think youd see some serious jewish resistance groups.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the sort of rubbish I hear all the time. How do you know this exactly? Please provide evidence/links to the same sort of stuff Palestinian children are fed on a daily basis. The media, human rights organisations, the UN all constantly reinforce this equivalence idea in every aspect of the conflict. "Cycle of violence", "extremists on both sides", etc... people blindly accept it as gospel.

The brainwashing of children and the glorification of brutality, death and murder is possibly the biggest problem of all. Hamas uses a mickey mouse character telling children that Jews are the sons of pigs and apes and telling them that the highest calling is to die attacking them. The word "Israel" does not appear on any Palestinian maps. They are taught that Jews are evil and the cause of every upheaval in the world including, explicitly "the french revolution and the communist revolution". They name streets and football teams after suicide bombers. They "report" that Israel organises orgies in muslim holy places, that the IDF drops poisoned sweets for Palestinian children, that Israel infected 300 Palestinian children with HIV, that the IDF x-rayed a Palestinian woman to death at a checkpoint, that Shamir (ex-Israeli Prime Minister) had the skull of a Palestinian fetus that was cut out of a Palestinian woman on his desk as an ashtray! Need I go on? This is yet another example of how the Palestian people are victims themselves - the world refuses to believe this and what Israel faces.

The Israeli education system, like the majority of the media, is left wing. Yuli Tamir, the education minister in the Israeli government, recently approved a textbook for Israeli arab children that referred to the establishment of the State of Israel as the "nakba" (the catastrophe), the arabic term that is used to refer to the establishment of the state. Shulamit Aloni, an ex education minister (and far left activist) has stated that she believes Israel practices apartheid against the Palestinians. Israeli children receive an Israeli left wing education which is very sympathetic to the palestinian cause.

If you want links to the above I will be happy to find them for you tomorrow. Please provide links to what you believe is taught to Israeli children or stop spouting this sort of rubbish.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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Lebanon has a choice. They can either put *their* house in order, or Israel will do so.

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would it be ok for cambodia to poison our water supply because we won't extradite kissinger?

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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Lebanon has a choice. They can either put *their* house in order, or Israel will do so.

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would it be ok for cambodia to poison our water supply because we won't extradite kissinger?

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Not the issue. The issue is recent (ongoing in the short term if not taking place at this very moment) attacks. Do you really get gullible people to fall for that kind of misdirection IRL?

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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If you want links to the above I will be happy to find them for you tomorrow. Please provide links to what you believe is taught to Israeli children or stop spouting this sort of rubbish.

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i dont need to look for links but maybe will tomorrow when i got time. I can tell you, as a jew, i grew up being taught to hate arabs. When felix children ask him what the arabs are he's going to say they are all murderous venoms who should be treated like dogs. I have tons of jewish friends who constantly joke the only thing better than one dead arab is millions of dead arabs. where do you think that comes from?

why do you think Rabin was assassinated just for being sympathetic the Palestinian cause? did you see how jews reacted when they gave back some of gaza too? like i said, many of hte jews did their bidding through the likud to impose their crazy religious beliefs this is just seemingly more legitimized.

three of my cousins serve in the Israeli military and all have very biased views on the issue and have a feeling that we just must be horrible to Arabs. the hatred very much exists on the Jewish side.

ive got more to say but gotta get some stuff done before the youtube debate. hopefully we can redress this tomorrow.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

no offense, but you seem to to have a very limited and naive view of the issues.


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I can tell you, as a jew, i grew up being taught to hate arabs.

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Do you mind me asking where you grew up and who "taught" you to hate arabs? Were you told blatant lies, that all arabs are bad, that you should kill them? Im genuinely curious. There is a big difference between prejudice and what is being taught to Palestinian children. You cant blame Israelis for not liking arabs, they have been attacked and murdered by them for many years, but there is a huge difference in wanting to murder every last one. Palestinians are educated to believe - literally - that Jews are animals and intrinsically evil AND at the same time, schooled in violence and brutality. It is this dual approach that makes murder inevitable and its one big difference as to why other people with prejudices do not end up blowing themselves up in pizza shops amongst the group they dont like. Whilst distasteful, jokes between friends do not lead to the sorts of things the Palestinians have been doing.


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where do you think that comes from?

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I have no idea. This is not my experience (and not the experience of my family and friends in Israel). Your answers to my questions above should help me understand.


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why do you think Rabin was assassinated just for being sympathetic the Palestinian cause?

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You are grossly over simplifying this. He was murdered by a lunatic who represented a tiny percentage of the population. Rabin was also not in any way "sympathetic" to the Palestinian cause. He basically believed that it was for the security of Israel to be at peace with the Palestinians - he didnt care at all about the Palestinians. Rabin was supported by a majority of the population and the vast majority of those that opposed him would never have considered anything but democratic means to stop his plans. The number of people who would have supported his assasination was miniscule but, unfortunately, to be expected - there are insane people in every country. We are not talking of a few families teaching their children to murder - we are talking about official (goverment controlled) media and religius figures.


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did you see how jews reacted when they gave back some of gaza too?

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Can you really be that flippant about the withdrawal from Gaza!? Do you really not understand how excruciatingly painful and divisive this was for the country? Families had been encouraged to live there by Labour and Likud governments since 1967. They believed they were doing their duty (some religious, some national, some both) to settle the land. Grandparents, parents and children were buried on that land where they had lived and worked for 40 years. Even for supporters of the withdrawal in Israel, it was an incredibly difficult event. How would you react exactly?


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like i said, many of hte jews did their bidding through the likud to impose their crazy religious beliefs this is just seemingly more legitimized.

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"bidding"? You speak like supporters of the likud party are mysterious evil masterminds! You sound exactly like someone who has uncritically listened to the propaganda. Also, religious beliefs are only a part of it - have you never heard of secular zionists - have you ever been to Israel?


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three of my cousins serve in the Israeli military and all have very biased views on the issue and have a feeling that we just must be horrible to Arabs. the hatred very much exists on the Jewish side.

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I never said that hatred dosnt exist on the Israeli side - of course it does. But your idea that Israel is run by religious madmen who see the murder of arabs as a righteous obligation is simply ignorant. Your 3 cousins are irrelevant - we are talking about a nation. You say that they believe that they should be "horrible" to arabs. Did they advocate the murder of innocent arabs? Have they done, seen or been encouraged to do this? Or do they just mean that the measures that Israel must take to defend its civilians are unpleasant but necessary, in their opinion?

They are also Israeli, therefore you cant really use the word "biased" to describe their views. They are not observers from the outside. Im sure that they dont like arabs. Most people wouldnt if they lived through the intifada when over a thousand civilians were murdered inside Israel, week by week and they had to join the army for 3 years at the age of 18 instead of going to clubs, meeting girls and travelling the world.

I apologise if my tone is harsh, but by the things you write, it seems that you really have a very superficial and naive view of the situation.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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Lebanon has a choice. They can either put *their* house in order, or Israel will do so.

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would it be ok for cambodia to poison our water supply because we won't extradite kissinger?

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Not the issue. The issue is recent (ongoing in the short term if not taking place at this very moment) attacks. Do you really get gullible people to fall for that kind of misdirection IRL?

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If your point is that might makes right, then just say it. Trying to justify all of Israel's actions in the invasion of lebanon just because lebanon didn't "have their house in order" is beyond ludicrous.

You should take your cues from felix and just admit that the reason you support 100% of all Israeli violence is that you hate muslims more than you hate jews. It would save everyone a lot of trouble and you wouldn't have to make anymore silly arguments.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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Palestinians are educated to believe - literally - that Jews are animals and intrinsically evil AND at the same time, schooled in violence and brutality.

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how can you even claim to know this is true?

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

Felix, why don't we kill/relocate jews instead? Whats the difference between the two groups?

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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Felix, why don't we kill/relocate jews instead? Whats the difference between the two groups?

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If this was a thread discussing the genocide of any other mainstream culture other than Middle East culture, the thread would have been locked. I am disappointed to see that mods have taken no action against the many racist and down right attacks against the Arab culture that has continued in this thread. It is disgusting to see something as complex as the Palestinian/Israeli conflict be broken down to "kill all the Arabs and let the Jews rejoice". So shameful! [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

MidGe level?

So Much For Freedom of Speech
 

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am disappointed to see that mods have taken no action against the many racist and down right attacks against the Arab culture that has continued in this thread.

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A racist is one who is biased against people because of their race.
I have no problem with Arab christians so therefore I can not be racist towards Arabs. I am biased against Islam but since muslims consist of all races on the planet, being biased against Islam is not racist. If you like, you can call me a culturist. Because I don't believe all cultures are equal....

My beliefs can be stated as:
Arab + Islam = Biased
Arab + Christian (or atheist) = Respect
Pakistani + Islam = Bias
Pakistani + Christian (or atheist) = Respect (although they would get the death penalty for being a christian)

There is nothing wrong being biased against a belief system that wants to kill me and other infidels. You expressed the wish that I be censored by the mods.... Muslims have this belief syatem as well. Perhaps you have more in common with Islam than you think.

I have no desire to censor you.... This is the difference between you and I. I'm more tolerant than you...

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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MidGe level?

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[x] You're all racist hicks!!!!

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

I do not pretend to be an expert. I am not articulate as it seems you are. I have served My Country (USA) well and am saddened to see that what the fundamental ideas that this nation was built on has corroded away and has been replaced by the ideologies of corrupt minds.

The Final Solution
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My solution to the Israel-Arab peace process?
1. Israel invades Gaza and Arab controlled areas of the West Bank and annexes the land.
2. Take away the citizenship of all Arabs inside Israel.
3. Relocate all Arabs inside Israel and dump them on the borders of Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon. Let their Arab brothers give them sanctuary.
4. Drink a beer for a job well done... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
5. Endure the occasional rocket attacks accross the borders but launch occasional cross border attacks to kill these scum.

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-Felix

The Final Solution
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What is clear is that the genocide of the Jews was the culmination of a decade of Nazi policy, under the rule of Adolf Hitler. The "Final Solution" was implemented in stages. After the June 1933 Nazi party rise to power, state-enforced racism resulted in anti-Jewish legislation, boycotts, "Aryanization," and finally the "Night of Broken Glass" pogrom, all of which aimed to remove the Jews from German society. After the beginning of World War II, anti-Jewish policy evolved into a comprehensive plan to concentrate and eventually annihilate European Jewry.

The Nazis established ghettos in occupied Poland. Polish and western European Jews were deported to these ghettos. During the German invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941, mobile killing squads (Einsatzgruppen) began killing entire Jewish communities. The methods used, mainly shooting or gas vans, were soon regarded as inefficient and as a psychological burden on the killers. After the Wannsee Conference in January 1942, the Nazis began the systematic deportation of Jews from all over Europe to six extermination camps established in former Polish territory -- Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, Auschwitz-Birkenau, and Majdanek. Extermination camps were killing centers designed to carry out genocide. Over three million Jews were gassed in extermination camps. In its entirety, the "Final Solution" consisted of gassings, shootings, random acts of terror, disease, and starvation that accounted for the deaths of about six million Jews -- two-thirds of European Jewry.

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http://www.ushmm.org/outreach/fsol.htm

We often dismiss the past when considering the future.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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Felix, why don't we kill/relocate jews instead? Whats the difference between the two groups?

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Jews are ~0.2% of the world population and have been awarded ~25% of all Nobel Prizes.

Muslims are ~25% of the world population and have been awarded ~1% of all Nobel Prizes.

Which of these groups would you prefer to prosper and which would you prefer to evaporate by, say, yesterday?

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

When did Nobel Prizes start getting awarded? Do you realize how many contributions to science, mathematics and astronomy, anything, the muslim world has made over history?