cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

I'm gonna try to maintain a log. I'm in a different situation than all the fatties trying to drop weight, thought it might be interesting to see the difference.

Background :

I've always been pretty fit and worked out hard. About 6 months ago I crashed my bicycle and separated my shoulder. It's healed, but I still have lingering frozen shoulder. It's just recently gotten to the point where I can work out again, but I've lost a lot of strength. So, my goal is to get back in shape now. I want to get my cardio & overall fitness back & also restore strength / add muscle.

Current stats : 6'1" , 185 lbs. Desired weight is 190 lbs, but at a lower body fat %.

I've never done Rippetoe's program before so I thought I'd try that as my initial phase for quickly adding muscle. My schedule looks like this :

M,W,F : Rippetoe A/B workouts
T,Th,S : Physical Therapy for my shoulder and other little workouts (abs, cardio)
Sun : rest

For my diet, I'm just eating pretty normally, but trying to eliminate any empty calories (things like chocolate) and just eat as much lean protein as I can stand to help add muscle. I do a protein shake immediately after the workout.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

Here are some links on the Rippetoe program :

The main link :

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224
Guide to Novice Barbell Training, aka the Official Rippetoe-Starting Strength FAQ - Bodybuilding.com Forums

More junk :

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=712752
Writeup for Rippetoe's program - Bodybuilding.com Forums

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=841628
14 weeks of Rippetoe's Starting Strength - Bodybuilding.com Forums

One problem I have is that with the frozen shoulder I still can't do a normal squat and I can't do a military press. At the moment I'm doing Hack Squats instead of normal squats. Hopefully I'll be able to do a normal squat soon.

This is a good article on hack squats & front squats, but anyone who can should just do a normal squat.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459865
Testosterone Nation - Forgotten Squats

Instead of military presses I'm doing incline bench with as much of an incline as I can manage, about 45 degrees. I'm just going to keep making that steeper as I get more range of motion in my shoulder.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

cbloom, nice on the Rippetoe. Do you not have enough flexibility in your shoulder joint to hold the bar properly?

Edit: Also, I'd move your third link up to the first position since it's the "authoritative" thread. The other one is somewhat misleading.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

This is what I did in the last workouts : (the weight is the amount on each side, and not counting the bar, so the real weight is X2 and + the bar weight, which is around 45 lbs)

Rippetoe A :
Bench 45
Hack Squat 60
Dead Lift 70

Rippetoe B :
Hack Squat 65
Pendlay Row 30
Incline Bench 40


At the moment I'm limited by wierd things; my squats & dead lifts are giving out because of grip strength and my bench really bothers my shoulder so I'm not doing nearly as much weight as I could. I'm doing the reps pretty slow and trying to use really good control and form to make sure I don't hurt myself during recovery.

My goal is to add about 5 lbs each week. BTW the physical therapy is 100X harder than the workout. Ugh it sucks so bad.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

[ QUOTE ]
cbloom, nice on the Rippetoe. Do you not have enough flexibility in your shoulder joint to hold the bar properly?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I can't get my hand behind the bar to stabilize it. When it was separated I had my arm in an immobilizer so I didn't user it at all. When I first got it out, almost any movement was painful, but I could do things directly in front of me (like typing). The physical therapy is to stretch the shoulder capsule and increase range of motion. Now I can hold my arms straight out at my side, but can't lift it over my head very far or go back behind my back. I can just barely do a bench press and get the bar down to my chest.

I'm pretty close to being able to do a proper squat, so hopefully I'll switch to that in a few weeks and won't be held back by grip any more. People said a hack squat was really natural but I find it really tough to keep good form, I really want to arch my back and it's awkward the way the bar hits the back of your leg on the way up.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

i got my copy of starting strength the other day...reading the squat section now...its great...

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

thirddan, best book ever. After you've read that over a couple times, get his other book on Amazon. It's called Practical Programming, and it goes hand-in-hand with Starting Strength.

cbloom, I'm guessing front squats don't work either with the shoulder?

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

[ QUOTE ]

cbloom, I'm guessing front squats don't work either with the shoulder?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's geometrically possible for me to do them, but it hurts bad to rest the weight on the front of the shoulder like that. It was a toss-up for me between doing those and the hack squats and the hacks were better on my arm so I went with that.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

[ QUOTE ]
thirddan, best book ever. After you've read that over a couple times, get his other book on Amazon. It's called Practical Programming, and it goes hand-in-hand with Starting Strength.

cbloom, I'm guessing front squats don't work either with the shoulder?

[/ QUOTE ]

both rippetoe books came together (amazon had a package deal) free shipping, both for $50...reading SS first so i can get proper form, doing a t-nation program before making my own...look forward to finishing both though...

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

cbloom's quote from another thread:

[ QUOTE ]
Personally I'm not sure if there's really a lot of benefit to doing ATG instead of just going down to parallel. I know the experts tell you to go ATG, but if it's not comfortable, is it really a big deal if you just go to parallel?

[/ QUOTE ]
Wasn't sure whether I should address this here or there, so I chose here.

I get way more activation of the hamstrings, glutes, and even the groin muscles when I go deep past parallel. The other benefit is that by going deeper, it naturally forces my hamstrings to stretch and helps me work on some of my flexibility issues. You seem to disagree about this though?

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

[ QUOTE ]
You seem to disagree about this though?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't have long-term experience with doing ATG so I can't really comment. At the moment I'm doing the hack squats and can't really get below parallel because the plates hit the ground. Once I start doing regular squats I'll be trying to do ATG.

Rippetoe A today
bench 45
hack squat 65
dead lift 75

Bench is getting limited cuz my shoulder was acting up.
I screwed up and shoulda done more on hack squat. I need to start taking my weight #'s with me to the gym I remembered it wrong.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

Rippetoe A today
bench 47.5
hack squat 70
dead lift 80

God damn I hate hack squats so much, can't wait to switch to the real thing.

I can't believe you're supposed to increase weight every *workout* not every week. That's crazy tough, I need to start taking smaller steps up in weight.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

cbloom,

Thankfully when you start up on Rippetoe's regimen, you should start real low. He suggests pushing the big big lifts (squat, deadlift) by 10 lbs each week. The lifts that involve fewer, smaller muscle groups will progress much slower. He recommends 5 lbs. jumps for benching, and I think even smaller jumps (fractional weights like 1.25 lb.) for overhead pressing. Don't remember off the top of my head what he recommends for the other lifts.

It's rough but it's meant to get you up to speed as quick as possible by taking advantage of "beginner gains". Since you're dealing with the shoulder though, I would be super conservative since the likelihood of injury is higher, plus the fact that injuring that shoulder again would force you to shut down everything.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

Ok, I have a problem/question :

I should do my Rippetoe B today but I was up real late drinking last night and am still tired and hung over. What's better - should I go in and just do my best and have probably a poor workout, or should I just take the day off and do it tomorrow?

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

Take a day off. From a programming perspective, as long as you still get 3 workouts done in the week, pushing the workout one day later won't matter. However, going in and having a crappy workout where you can't exert maximum strength will definitely have an effect on the next workout.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

cbloom, zercher squats might be a decent alternative to the hacks (i've never had shoulder problems so this could be terrible advice, but its worth a try). i googled them and found this illustration, not great but it gets the point across.
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/exerc...rchersquat.htm

I'm interested to see how all you guys do on this program, never heard anything about it before.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

What is harder on your knee's hams...hack squats or barbel/smith machine squats? I think I'm gonna try this plan out in a couple of weeks at my new gym but my legs are really bad in terms of flexability etc. My knees are a bit achy and ive tried just testing them out by doing body weight squats and based on how tight my muscles/knee feel just doing those...the thought of doing weighted squats kinda freaks me out.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

charlie, check out this video i posted in another thread. this is the only way ive been able to instantly teach proper squat form.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...81301858251744
i'm inflexible as [censored] and can still squat ATF.

as for your question, hack squats are rough on my knees personally, and i can do every other variation without trouble. hopefully someone else can chime in.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

skunk, thanks, so glad I took the day off yesterday, felt strong today and kicked it out :

Rippetoe B :
Hack Squat 75 (x2+bar)
Pendlay Row 32.5 (x2+bar)
Dumbell Bench 55

(I can't do the military presses I should be doing third here so I'm still experimenting with what to fill in, tried dumbell benches today)

One question I have : on the squat & the bench today, the first two sets I did a clean 5 reps, then the third set I crapped out around 3 reps. Should I go ahead and bump up the weight next time, or do the same weight again until I can get a full clean 3x5 ?

As another experiment I tried doing a warmup set of hack squats with a mixed grip (one hand forward one hand backward) and it was way easier - if I do normal grip I really struggle to hold it. Dunno how I feel about that. Hacks are so f**king hard to do right because the grip is hard, keeping your shoulders back is really hard, and if you don't use perfect form you ram the bar into the back of your leg on the way up and get stuck there.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

Doesn't Rippetoe say to drop 15 lbs when you fail to finish a set?

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't Rippetoe say to drop 15 lbs when you fail to finish a set?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that I know of. I think that's what you're supposed to do when you plateau and can't increase the weight - you drop way down and then start the steady progression back up again. This is the section on stalling :

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...p;postcount=23
Bodybuilding.com Forums - View Single Post - Guide to Novice Barbell Training, aka the Official Rippetoe-Starting Strength FAQ

Here's a quote from the FAQ :

[ QUOTE ]

3) If you get the first 2 sets of 5 with proper technique, but you only get 4 reps on the 3rd, then determine if it was a "recovery deficit" (4 hours sleep last night/skipped meals, etc) or a "technique deficit" (body wasn't tight during presses, leaned forward too much in squat, etc). If the strength or technique deficit was an anomaly and/or is easily correctable, then you can probably add the normal amount of weight as described above. If the weight just felt dog heavy, then add only a bit more, or even keep the weight the same for the next workout. Better to get your 5/5/5 next workout then get a 5/5/3 or a 5/4/4 with a heavier weight.

4) If you get at least 12 or 13 of the reps total (i.e. 5/4/4 or 5/4/3 or 4/4/4) then keep the weight the same for the next workout.


[/ QUOTE ]

One thing that might be the problem is I should rest even longer between sets to make sure I'm fully recovered.

So from the FAQ it sounds like I should probably keep the weight the same and make sure I get a clean 3x5 next time. I think with the squat what I'll do is go up by 2.5 instead of the normal 5 on each side.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

cbloom,

When you fail to complete a full 3x5, there's a bit of decision-making required as to whether you should reset the weights (drop weights by 10-35 lbs.), use the same weight, or just keep pushing forward. Thankfully, kethnaab on the bb.com forums addressed this in great detail here.

Basically: If you drop the last rep of your third set, I wouldn't worry about it too much. If you end up doing 5/4/4 with some struggling, I'd keep the weight the same or do a tiny weight jump. If it doesn't get better in the next few workouts or even gets worse, your muscles need a bit of a break so go ahead and reset. If you put up a stinker like 5/3/3, you'll have to make a decision whether it was just a bad workout (poor pre-workout nutrition, hung over, not focused) or whether you're in over your head. If it might be an aberration, try again next workout. If it still feels like [censored] on the next workout, drop the weight down.

Edit: Also, if I drop a rep or two on a set, I'll take an extra long time before I hit the next set -- somewhere between 3-4 minutes.

Brag - set a PR by squatting 215 yesterday.
Beat - It was 5/4/4 and I ended up having to drop the bar on the second set and crawl out from the power rack.
Variance - Indian guys next to me using the Smith machine to do 1/8 squats with 3 plates. Roar.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't Rippetoe say to drop 15 lbs when you fail to finish a set?

[/ QUOTE ]
No. He got stuck, so he should keep the weight the same and bang out 3x5 next time.

Do not increase the weight, and consider getting some microplates.

EDIT: didn't see skunks post, his advice is more detailed.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

Decided to keep the weight the same for the hacks and make sure I do a full clean 3x5 , it felt pretty easy.

Rippetoe A today
hack squat 75
bench 50
dead lift 85

I made sure to get a full 3 minute rest between sets today and it made everything feel a lot easier. I'm gonna start taking a minute timer to the gym.

That's the most I've ever dead lifted (85x2+bar = 215); it totally kicked my ass, I felt faint after, it was cool. I'm sure I could've done more back when I was in shape but I never tried to do heavy deadlifts before.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

[ QUOTE ]
charlie, check out this video i posted in another thread. this is the only way ive been able to instantly teach proper squat form.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...81301858251744
i'm inflexible as [censored] and can still squat ATF.


[/ QUOTE ]

I finally watched this whole thing. Excellent video for people wanting to learn squat technique. You only need to watch the first 25 minutes or so, he goes into a bunch of olympic lift stuff after that.

Lots of good stuff at Dan's site too:

http://www.danjohn.org/gramp.html
The Coach - Dan John - Lifiting and Throwing

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

Rippetoe B :
Hack Squat 80 (x2+bar)
Pendlay Row 35 (x2+bar)
Shrugs + Curls + I don't know WTF to do instead of militaries

My hacks failed on grip so I finished up the hack sets with a mixed grip, which is sort of cheating I guess. To compensate I did grip bombing at the end since I can't do the militaries anyway.

The steady progress on this program is so awesome, I'm loving it.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

Rippetoe A today
hack squat 82.5 (x2+bar)
bench 52.5 (x2+bar)
dead lift 90 (x2+bar)


I scraped the crap out of my legs and ankles dead lifting today by running the rough bar along my legs on the way up & down. Guess I'm gonna have to wear jeans to dead lift !? Meh

People in the gym keep asking me about the hacks cuz they've never seen anyone else do 'em.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

hack squat is a mchine right?

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

[ QUOTE ]
hack squat is a mchine right?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, see earlier in thread.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

Rippetoe B :
Hack Squat 85 (x2+bar)
Pendlay Row 37.5 (x2+bar)
Shrugs + Curls + I don't know WTF to do instead of militaries

Random dude came up to me in the gym today to tell me about George Hackenshmidt, inventor of the hack squat. Sorry random dude, you seem nice and all, but I'm not gay.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

How does one figure out where to start in terms of the Rippletoe program?

In terms of wieghts used per exercise. I've never even done pulley rows, deadlifts, squats since like high school.
I've done incline bench press but not flat bench press.

Should i just start really light since im a total newb and will have to raise my weight every workout? Start with just the bar?

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

[ QUOTE ]
How does one figure out where to start in terms of the Rippletoe program?


[/ QUOTE ]

The program recommends going in and spending one day at the gym figuring out your starting weight. If you read all the links above you'll find some stuff but I'll write a quick version :

Your first day you just go in and practice each exercise and try to figure out your starting way. For each exercise, first of all practice your form with just the bar. If you can't do it with proper form with just the bar, then stop immediately and work on that. If you can do it with proper form and it feels easy, add weight. You want to add weight in small increments, 5-10 lbs at a time, try doing 5 reps again and check your form, add more weight until it's not really easy any more. The most important thing here is to keep proper form and don't add too much weight. Don't go in with any preconceived ideas of how much weight you should be doing, and don't try to add weight until you "feel it". If you don't add enough weight that's no big deal, err on the side of lower weights. Your goal is to find the highest weight where you can do 5 reps with perfect form and it's not totally easy. Now don't actually do your working sets, just record the weight and start next time.

[ QUOTE ]

In terms of wieghts used per exercise. I've never even done pulley rows, deadlifts, squats since like high school.
I've done incline bench press but not flat bench press.

Should i just start really light since im a total newb and will have to raise my weight every workout? Start with just the bar?

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you've never done a lot them, the most important thing is getting the form right. You should try to get someone to help you, look at pictures, read a lot. I would definitely do it with just the bar at first and work on form. You might want to work on some exercises just even without the bar at first to practice form. Don't worry if you start too light - you'll be adding weight 3 times a week.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

[ QUOTE ]
Should i just start really light since im a total newb and will have to raise my weight every workout? Start with just the bar?

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the book.

And the FAQ.

And this post.

And especially How much weight should I use?.

I'm about to find this out for myself too (book is on the way), but there is no hard and fast way to know what you're going to be able to lift the first time, how could there be? Since you're supposed to start with the empty bar and then some lighter weights to warm up, I guess for the first time you just keep adding and doing warm up sets until you think you've got enough on the bar to do the work sets, and hopefully you didn't go too high. Better to be too low and increase more rapidly next workout if it's too easy, as per the FAQ.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

To the Rippetoe starters -- You'll be frightened by how fast your working set weights balloon upward, and at a certain point you'll sigh longingly for the days when you could work with light weights but still get incredible strength gains. It's also really important to nail form down early before it gets heavy -- I ended up wasting a month and had to reset my squat weight all the way down when I realized my form sucked.

cbloom, how far off do you think your shoulder rehab is from allowing you to back squat?

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

[ QUOTE ]

cbloom, how far off do you think your shoulder rehab is from allowing you to back squat?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh, I tried it last time I was at the gym and I could get my hands on the bar but it hurt like a million burning needles inside my shoulder so I got out of there quick. My shoulder rehab seems to have stalled out where I have 90% range of motion now but I'm not improving [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I'm gonna drop the hacks and switch to front squats soon because it seems closer to the real thing. I figure I should stick with the hacks a few more workouts.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

Rippetoe A today
hack squat 87.5 (3,5,5)
bench 55 (5,4,4)
dead lift 95 (4)


Ugh, crappy day. The hacks almost made me puke, even though I did 2.5 pounds less last time pretty easily.

Dead lift skinned my shin again. The bar runs into the middle of my shin on the way up and then as I pull through the lift it just rips the skin off cuz the bar is like a cheese grater.

Question :
When you guys do the negative on the dead lift do you just drop it all the way and step out of the way then re-address the bar, or do you sort of drop it with control? (sometimes I hit my knees on the way down if I lower it with semi-control).

I also feel like I was too flat-backed in the dead lift, I try to keep my back upright but when I start to struggle my legs go up and my back arches, bad bad bad. I might have to drop back down to low weight and work on form again.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

so cbloom yr deadlifitng 95+95+45(bar) right?

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

[ QUOTE ]
so cbloom yr deadlifitng 95+95+45(bar) right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah (235). It's not really that much (my goal is 2x bodyweight, or about 400) but I'm not used to deadlifting a lot and not comfortable keeping good form and all that.

ps. I started doing Rippetoe with 45 on each side (45*2+45 = 135), just add 5 each time, only 10 workouts later (about a month) I'm at 95 (=235). Crazy.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dead lift skinned my shin again. The bar runs into the middle of my shin on the way up and then as I pull through the lift it just rips the skin off cuz the bar is like a cheese grater.

[/ QUOTE ]

How wide is your stance? Unless you have extremely wide hips your shins should be within the knurling which will help. What grip do you use? If it is both overhand try alternating grip as it will reduce the pull toward you and against your legs. Remember to alternate which hand you have overhand/underhand though. As a last resort just wear long socks or tape your shins.

[ QUOTE ]
When you guys do the negative on the dead lift do you just drop it all the way and step out of the way then re-address the bar, or do you sort of drop it with control?

[/ QUOTE ]

The bar should come down under control for most reps. This doesn't mean extremely slow but if you hang on the whole way down it shouldn't be a huge jarring sensation when the weights hit the floor.

[ QUOTE ]
I also feel like I was too flat-backed in the dead lift, I try to keep my back upright but when I start to struggle my legs go up and my back arches, bad bad bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you holding your breath throughout the lift? This can help maintain core stability. In all honesty though, if you feel like your lower back especially is beggining to or is losing its arch just let go of the weight immediately. Struggling through a lift with an arched lower back is the cause of almost all deadlift injuries.

Re: cbloom\'s log - Rippetoe & Frozen Shoulder
 

[ QUOTE ]
Rippetoe A today
hack squat 87.5 (3,5,5)
bench 55 (5,4,4)
dead lift 95 (4)


Ugh, crappy day. The hacks almost made me puke, even though I did 2.5 pounds less last time pretty easily.

Dead lift skinned my shin again. The bar runs into the middle of my shin on the way up and then as I pull through the lift it just rips the skin off cuz the bar is like a cheese grater.

Question :
When you guys do the negative on the dead lift do you just drop it all the way and step out of the way then re-address the bar, or do you sort of drop it with control? (sometimes I hit my knees on the way down if I lower it with semi-control).

I also feel like I was too flat-backed in the dead lift, I try to keep my back upright but when I start to struggle my legs go up and my back arches, bad bad bad. I might have to drop back down to low weight and work on form again.

[/ QUOTE ]
I set the bar down gently. It's pretty hard, I was having a little trouble keeping my back straight/arched about 20 lbs ago, but not much anymore.