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-   -   deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand. (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=557062)

Ansky 11-29-2007 08:58 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
[ QUOTE ]
i think flop is fine, now i bet turn... ansky i watched some of this match and agree that w/ the way it was going, if he c/r turn you should prob get away from this. anyhow that hand where you flopped top set and he rivered the straight was just sick... is that the same guy on stars that is primarily a MTT guy?

[/ QUOTE ]

no. it was a different person.

nycballer 11-29-2007 09:08 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
bet, if u decide to check, then bet river and fold to c/r

RiverHebrew2 11-29-2007 09:15 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
I like a check behind to get some river value and for pot control. I would assume he rr pre with AQ or AK preflop, and c/ring an Ace on this flop IMO is terrible by him(unless its AQ or AK). You don't want to bet here and get double c/r, and then have to contemplate calling a big river bet. Though you guys are deep, I don't really see you getting much value here on the turn unless you're beat. I think you risk getting v-towned by a fancily played 3x. Plus, he could put u on a middish pair if you check behind this turn, and could definitely try a big bluff on the riv if it's a paint card. Turn check is good IMO.

jlocdog 11-29-2007 09:32 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
"Im good with betting the turn but only if you can fold happily to the check raise because if you really don't know what to do betting is bad. Besides, its unlikely you get two more streets of value out of a majority of his range, and you can possibly catch some river bluffs as well."

100% agree.

It seems given this flop and game dynamic, your value is capped where your value bets would be value stacking yourself after two streets worth of bets.

Ansky 11-30-2007 01:03 AM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
OK. guess we've had enough about the turn.

I bet 3100 on the turn, he thinks for ~10 seconds and calls.

River is a Qs and he checks fairly quckly. ~ 15k effective stacks.

I...

(Remember I do have the ace of spades, so he cannot have Axss.)

jfish 11-30-2007 01:11 AM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
shove.

Ansky 11-30-2007 01:14 AM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
you realize pot is 9800 right?

fisheater11 11-30-2007 01:51 AM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
fold flop

vm1124 11-30-2007 01:57 AM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
[ QUOTE ]
fold flop

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

irockhoess 11-30-2007 03:53 AM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
has he been three betting a normal amount preflop?

Ansky 11-30-2007 04:18 AM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
[ QUOTE ]
has he been three betting a normal amount preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

pretty infrequently relatively speaking. Not like absurdly low % but def lower than almost anyone else who plays this high.

irockhoess 11-30-2007 05:01 AM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
if the guy has A10, do you think he c/r the river? id imagine a good amount of players would just call. I dunno i think if i bet its like 4/5th of the pot to rep that you are trying to move him off a split since the Q on the river eliminates the kickers.

thats if you are going to bet...i might just check behind here the first time to get an idea of his reraising ranges.

actually i change the checking thing. i bet. i think if he had a hand that wanted to get paid off by an ace such as a 3 or AQ or whatever, i think he bets river himself.

Apathy 11-30-2007 06:28 AM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
[ QUOTE ]
OK. guess we've had enough about the turn.

I bet 3100 on the turn, he thinks for ~10 seconds and calls.

River is a Qs and he checks fairly quckly. ~ 15k effective stacks.

I...

(Remember I do have the ace of spades, so he cannot have Axss.)

[/ QUOTE ]


bet 7k or w/e you think will get value here or rep a bluff or w/e... you better get c-raised here or this hand=yawwwnnnn

mperich 11-30-2007 06:32 AM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
wouldnt that make this a 3part hand then apathy?

-Mike

Ansky 11-30-2007 06:35 AM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
maybe i lied.

or maybe i didnt.

TheWorstPlayer 11-30-2007 11:29 AM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
i'd check the river. not that i dont think you're ahead, but i dont think you're ahead 50% when called.

Daliman 11-30-2007 05:23 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
[ QUOTE ]
someone explain why 3balling the flop is even a good play vs this villian.

[/ QUOTE ]
It can give you more information about his hand. If he 4-balls, yer probably dead, and you found out for cheaper than calling a turn and river, which if the board bricks off, you pretty much have to do.

Not saying it's the best play, but showing why it can have merit.

That said, I haven't read to second part yet, but it seems like you caught him with his hand in the cookie jar. I'd probably bet and reassess if he raises again, as you have mentioned he can't have had an ace on flop and now picked up FD. Probably a fold if he does raise again given your read on him.


EDIT: I've now read the rest, and while I hate to let people off with a weak ace here, betting like 4500 and folding to a shove is supremely crappy, but if you bet anywhere near pot and he raises you, pretty much both options suck. That said, from your read I probably milk him for the 4500 on river, then cry and fold if he raises me, as I can't imagine for the life of me a guy with this image is going to piss away ~23k trying to shove off an obvious ace, and wouldn't be at all surprised had he backed into a flush with a flop bluff. I'm guessing since you posted this, this hand is more interesting than a standard bet/called/kicked his ace or bet/folded, but trying not to look at it like that.

TheWorstPlayer 11-30-2007 05:27 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
someone explain why 3balling the flop is even a good play vs this villian.

[/ QUOTE ]
It can give you more information about his hand. If he 4-balls, yer probably dead, and you found out for cheaper than calling a turn and river, which if the board bricks off, you pretty much have to do.


[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

bigdaddyyc 11-30-2007 05:31 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
[ QUOTE ]
i'd check the river. not that i dont think you're ahead, but i dont think you're ahead 50% when called.

[/ QUOTE ]

no vbet w/ nutflush?. QQ unlikely, A6 wont check riv, A3 played wierd.

i play ssnl, and would almost always vbet this...wrong??

edit: read this terribly wrong, thx daliman.

Daliman 11-30-2007 05:36 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
someone explain why 3balling the flop is even a good play vs this villian.

[/ QUOTE ]
It can give you more information about his hand. If he 4-balls, yer probably dead, and you found out for cheaper than calling a turn and river, which if the board bricks off, you pretty much have to do.


[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
What's the question? That dry a board and we're gonna just assume a mostly ABC player is gonna bluff us off an obv good ace by 4 betting a dry flop? Again, not saying it's the best line, just saying it has it's merits at times.

At least post what the question is, it's not like my statement is that strange, and if you think it is, say why.

Daliman 11-30-2007 05:37 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i'd check the river. not that i dont think you're ahead, but i dont think you're ahead 50% when called.

[/ QUOTE ]

no vbet w/ nutflush?. QQ unlikely, A6 wont check riv, A3 played wierd.

i play ssnl, and would almost always vbet this...wrong??

[/ QUOTE ]
You misread, he doesn't have nut flush, just has Ace of spades. Obv vbet if nut flush.

TheWorstPlayer 11-30-2007 06:06 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
someone explain why 3balling the flop is even a good play vs this villian.

[/ QUOTE ]
It can give you more information about his hand. If he 4-balls, yer probably dead, and you found out for cheaper than calling a turn and river, which if the board bricks off, you pretty much have to do.


[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
What's the question? That dry a board and we're gonna just assume a mostly ABC player is gonna bluff us off an obv good ace by 4 betting a dry flop? Again, not saying it's the best line, just saying it has it's merits at times.

At least post what the question is, it's not like my statement is that strange, and if you think it is, say why.

[/ QUOTE ]
well if i think he's not going to call with worse or 4-bet bluff, that i dont see any reason at all to 3-bet. if i'm 3-betting here, it's exactly because i want more action. not to find out if i'm beat or not. from my perspective, AK is pretty darn close to the nuts on this flop. i'll do whatever i can to get as much money in the pot as i can (within reason).

Daliman 11-30-2007 07:33 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
someone explain why 3balling the flop is even a good play vs this villian.

[/ QUOTE ]
It can give you more information about his hand. If he 4-balls, yer probably dead, and you found out for cheaper than calling a turn and river, which if the board bricks off, you pretty much have to do.


[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
What's the question? That dry a board and we're gonna just assume a mostly ABC player is gonna bluff us off an obv good ace by 4 betting a dry flop? Again, not saying it's the best line, just saying it has it's merits at times.

At least post what the question is, it's not like my statement is that strange, and if you think it is, say why.

[/ QUOTE ]
well if i think he's not going to call with worse or 4-bet bluff, that i dont see any reason at all to 3-bet. if i'm 3-betting here, it's exactly because i want more action. not to find out if i'm beat or not. from my perspective, AK is pretty darn close to the nuts on this flop. i'll do whatever i can to get as much money in the pot as i can (within reason).

[/ QUOTE ]

Well then you can easily also say you are just getting more $$$ in the pot, as lots won't fold AQ/AJ here. With HU play, most anything you can throw people off with and also gain info about their play is +EV for me.

TheWorstPlayer 12-01-2007 01:55 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
agree. that's why i was confused when you said the reason was 'getting information about his hand'. since that's maybe number 5 on the reasons why i would be doing it. yet you didnt mention reasons 1-4 at all.

Ansky 12-01-2007 08:31 PM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
ok so i bet 7100 he shoves for 15k

Jason Strasser (strassa2) 12-02-2007 03:25 AM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
i guess id check turn usually
meh
its dumb logic i guess, because everyone CR's the river these days
game is so different

but id say in the old days that if the entire stack goes in on the turn here you are [censored] and its unlikely he has so many hands that will go check-call check-all in- call
which is the only reason to bet
but if you check behind turn, he can still CR river
which was never in play before
because no one did that
so why even bother with the pot control argument

the only real benefit to checking turn is that you maximize bluff equity.... especially if you are folding to a turn CR

Jw513 12-02-2007 05:02 AM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
[ QUOTE ]
ok so i bet 7100 he shoves for 15k

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you really fold now with 32k-ish in pot?

Ansky 12-02-2007 05:07 AM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ok so i bet 7100 he shoves for 15k

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you really fold now with 32k-ish in pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

why not?

bap2086 12-02-2007 05:14 AM

Re: deeeeep 50-100, 2 part heads up hand.
 
hand is like 2 sick to be real


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