Two CallTheFloor Events in One Tourney
 

Sahara 11pm tourney and it's getting near the money. Shortstack goes all-in with KJ and gets called by AQs who has her covered. Cards are flipped face up, the board is dealt and a J comes up. Guy with AQs flips 'em face down after the river is dealt with a "that sucks" comment. Only turns out he had a flush. Oh... fine, turn the cards back face up. Only the lady is now outraged! Nononooooo! He mucked his cards! Give me my pot! HE MUCKED! CALL THE FLOOR! Floor comes over and once he gets the whole story instantly makes the obvious and correct call--soon as the river card was dealt the hand was done and turning the winning cards over at the end doesn't change that (even if the cards had been tossed into the muck it wouldn't have changed the outcome, but in this case they were just turned face down in front of the player). Lady (and at this point using the term "lady" is stretching things a bit) let fly a "THIS IS BULLSH..!" and stormed out.

That wasn't as interesting as the earlier event. As they were combining down to two tables, a player came over and started to sit in the 10-seat. Cards were dealt to him as he was still moving his chips over and sitting down. But the person in the 1-seat didn't see that a new player was coming in, so soon as the 9-seat acted, the 1-seat folded as did the 2-seat, 3-seat, 4-seat, 5-seat, 6-seat. About this time the 10-seat guy gets seated, looks at his cards, and puts out a large raise. The big blind in the 8-seat throws a fit, claiming it's totally unfair for the 10-seat to have the knowledge that all the subsequent players are folding and use that to decide to raise. He's right. 10-seat claims it ain't his fault. He's right, too--he wasn't even in his seat as all this is happening so it's not like he had the opportunity to stop the action. The floor got called but before he could actually make a ruling the raiser in the 10-seat with obvious hard feelings gave in and agreed to just chop it with the BB and take back their respective bets. Button didn't move and it was redealt. Which in my book was unfair to the rest of the table as well as to the raiser...the big blind was allowed a do-over when he was obviously holding rags. But I don't see any way to "fix" this such that it isn't unfair to someone. Floor said, had they allowed him to rule, that he woulda let the raise stand.

Re: Two CallTheFloor Events in One Tourney
 

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Floor said, had they allowed him to rule, that he woulda let the raise stand.

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This ruling would have been incorrect. Also allowing the players to work it out in a tournament is wrong as the other players are impacted.

Re: Two CallTheFloor Events in One Tourney
 

Situation #2 is why I like the rule (in tournaments) that if you're not seated when the button gets his second card, your hand is dead. Done. Easy.

Re: Two CallTheFloor Events in One Tourney
 

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Situation #2 is why I like the rule (in tournaments) that if you're not seated when the button gets his second card, your hand is dead. Done. Easy.

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This rule is generally not applied when the floor says "deal in the big blind, I am bringing you a player"

Re: Two CallTheFloor Events in One Tourney
 

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Floor said, had they allowed him to rule, that he woulda let the raise stand.

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This ruling would have been incorrect. Also allowing the players to work it out in a tournament is wrong as the other players are impacted.

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So what is the correct ruling? Punishing the guy who was just moving in to the seat is wrong. Punishing the blind by letting the new guy raise with knowledge that it'll be heads-up is wrong. Calling it a do-over is wrong. I ain't got it figured out how you fix this without screwing somebody.

Re: Two CallTheFloor Events in One Tourney
 

If a player doesn't protect his action on a later round, he forfits his right to bet.
Is there a rule for when there is already an uncalled bet infront of him?

Re: Two CallTheFloor Events in One Tourney
 

Well when i read the first decision I thought wow thats a miracle the Floor at the Sahara finally made the right decision. But then I read the second event and may faith in the Sahara Floor always getting it wrong was restored.

Either you follow TDA rules and a player who isn't in his seat when the second card is dealt to the button has his hand killed, or you follow the rule that a player who isn't in his seat when the action gets to him has his hand killed, either way this player has a dead hand. It might not be his fault, but thats irrelevant.

The thing is that I stopped playing the Shaara Tournament (even though I've had some success at that tourney) because the floor cocnsistently pissed me off. Along with almost always making bad rulings, he never balances tables, dealers will be hollering for him but he doesn't come over and take care of the problem, instead you just wait until a dealer on break happens to walk by and take care of the fact that one table has 11 players and another has 7.

Re: Two CallTheFloor Events in One Tourney
 

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Situation #2 is why I like the rule (in tournaments) that if you're not seated when the button gets his second card, your hand is dead. Done. Easy.

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This rule is generally not applied when the floor says "deal in the big blind, I am bringing you a player"

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According to OP the Floor was not involved in this . . . The Player had "started to sit down" .

The Player was not the Big Blind.

Those two factors make this a different situation than when the floor comes over and says "deal in the big blind, I am bringing you a player"

Re: Two CallTheFloor Events in One Tourney
 

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Floor said, had they allowed him to rule, that he woulda let the raise stand.

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This ruling would have been incorrect. Also allowing the players to work it out in a tournament is wrong as the other players are impacted.

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So what is the correct ruling? Punishing the guy who was just moving in to the seat is wrong. Punishing the blind by letting the new guy raise with knowledge that it'll be heads-up is wrong. Calling it a do-over is wrong. I ain't got it figured out how you fix this without screwing somebody.

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Players miss hands all the time while transfering tables, I really don't think it rises to the level of "punishing" to simply muck that players hand because he wasn't at the table when it was his turn to act.

Re: Two CallTheFloor Events in One Tourney
 

What tournament rules do they play by? In tourneys I deal, if the player isn't IN HIS SEAT when the last card is dealt, the hand is dead.

Re: Two CallTheFloor Events in One Tourney
 

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What tournament rules do they play by? In tourneys I deal, if the player isn't IN HIS SEAT when the last card is dealt, the hand is dead.

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This is going a little far. "We allow you to stand up and stretch" is a quote I heard once when some nit at the table tried to make 'em muck someone's hand who was standing behind his chair after suffering a leg cramp as the deal finished. As well, this is a $62 tournament--the rules are maybe a bit more lax than you'll find at a $2500 WSOP table.

This guy was there, setting his chips down as the first card is dealt. He's putting his jacket on the back of the chair and pulling it out and sitting down and pushing the chair back in as the action goes past him. He was there, just wasn't QUITE ready to play. His fanny may actually have been touching the chair as it became his turn to act (Sahara requires you be seated when it becomes your turn to act, not when the deal is complete--you can debate whether or not you like that, but the rule is consistent, at least.)

But yeah, I guess I'm beginning to like the idea of treating his unreadiness as the equivalent of not being in his seat. He wasn't capable of protecting his action, so it was about as bad as if he were 10' away. Muck his cards and move on works for me.

Re: Two CallTheFloor Events in One Tourney
 

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Along with almost always making bad rulings, he never balances tables, dealers will be hollering for him but he doesn't come over and take care of the problem, instead you just wait until a dealer on break happens to walk by and take care of the fact that one table has 11 players and another has 7.

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Meh. Ain't that bad and it varies depending on who's working. I've seen many other tournaments, including some much higher buy-in tourneys, where the floor is more difficult to get hold of. And I've seen a few larger buy-in tourneys where they screwed up pretty basic stuff--things most folks on this forum would get right.

For $62 you get a pretty nice tourney at Sahara with a structure adequate to let you play poker and not 30 minutes in become an all-in craps fest. And at the 7pm event you even get a yummy free sub sammich at the first break. I ain't found a low dollar tourney I like better. But you have to take it for what it is; they turn the crank and 3 times a day a reasonable $62 tourney comes out. I think I'm getting my money's worth but when playing a $62 tourney I'm more entertainment driven than profit driven. It's +EV, but nowhere close to as profitable per hour as most any NL1/2 game.

Re: Two CallTheFloor Events in One Tourney
 

He's right, too--he wasn't even in his seat as all this is happening so it's not like he had the opportunity to stop the action.

His fanny may actually have been touching the chair as it became his turn to act

One or the other. If he wants to do "I'm going to take my time and get comfy before I look at my cards and not pay attention to the action or bother to ask for 'Time' and all of you can just wait for me" ....sorry, his hand is dead.

Also, was the dealer deaf, dumb, and blind?

Re: Two CallTheFloor Events in One Tourney
 

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Situation #2 is why I like the rule (in tournaments) that if you're not seated when the button gets his second card, your hand is dead. Done. Easy.

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This rule is generally not applied when the floor says "deal in the big blind, I am bringing you a player"

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According to OP the Floor was not involved in this . . . The Player had "started to sit down" .

The Player was not the Big Blind.

Those two factors make this a different situation than when the floor comes over and says "deal in the big blind, I am bringing you a player"

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I was in a hurry when I responded, but from the OP

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As they were combining down to two tables, a player came over and started to sit in the 10-seat. Cards were dealt to him as he was still moving his chips over and sitting down.

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There is no way this player loses his hand by not being in his seat, he was in the process of moving from another table, if he is dealt in before he arrives at the table the action shoudl wait for him to arrive. If he is not yet to the table he really shouldn't be dealt in, but once he is dealt in he has the right to act on his hand. This is not the situation TDA has in mind when someoen leaves the table and needs to be back at the table.

Re: Two CallTheFloor Events in One Tourney
 

I envisioned the scenario a bit differently but on rereading I suspect I was incorrect about what was happening. I envisioned the guy shuffling over setting down some chips and the dealer starts dealing to him and he wanders off (without a word) to go get either the rest of his chips, his jacket, his drink or whatever and returns to the table has the player in seat six is folding his hand.

Now that I reread it, it doesn't appear that he went anywhere, but was just distracted from the game maybe standing next to his chair but physically there doing his thing.

However that being the case the player being present at the table has to have some responsibility for protecting his action. So this guy is there at the table and six players act behind him and he doesn't say a word. Now I understand that players can muck their hands pretty quickly, but 6 players all mucking thier hands is a lot of action happening behind this guy.

Re: Two CallTheFloor Events in One Tourney
 

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Now that I reread it, it doesn't appear that he went anywhere, but was just distracted from the game maybe standing next to his chair but physically there doing his thing.

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Right. And the reason I'm pretty fuzzy with detail is I was obviously not paying close enough attention or I wouldn't have folded my cards from the 3-seat as all this was happening. They'd broken a table, a couple folks were coming in, this guy set his chips down on the table while standing behind he chair and the dealer dealt him in. That's about the last I was watching the 10-seat. I see the 1-seat and 2-seat fold, look at may rags and toss 'em in. Watch everybody else fold to the blinds and suddenly the 1-seat puts in a big stack of chips and the blind starts grumbling.

The dealer should have been able to stop the action before it got too far, but dealers get distracted, and blaming the dealer solves nothing. I don't blame the 10-seat for failing to stop the action--he's distracted with the move. Don't blame the 1-seat for acting outta turn since he couldn't easily see that a new player was coming in to the 10-seat. Any other player at the table coulda been paying attention but wasn't. Don't blame the blind for thinking the raise shouldn't be allowed. It's pretty much a no-fault kinda issue that regardless needs to be resolved.

Re: Two CallTheFloor Events in One Tourney
 

This is a bad situation. His hand is going to be dead for failing to protect his action. On my first reading I didn't notice he was at the table.

A lot of these senerios that would be pretty easy to rule on in real life are hard online just because it can be hard to paint an accurate picture without being there in person.