5/10 middle pair is the new top pair ?
 

No Limit Hold'em Ring Game (6 max) , 5 players
Blinds : $5/$10

Stacks:
UTG : $740.10
CO : $1447 (Hero)
BTN : $670.45
SB : $1860.80
BB : $881

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG limps, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $45</font>, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($140, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets $138</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($416, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets $698 (all-in)</font>, Hero ...


Villain is a reg, he's sLAG preflop but pretty standard taggy style postflop.

Re: 5/10 middle pair is the new top pair ?
 

i think you can call, it didnt feel like a call but giving him a range it seems v reasonable.


Hand 0: 43.975% 41.31% 02.67% 19805701 1277972.50 { JdTd }
Hand 1: 56.025% 53.36% 02.67% 25582866 1277972.50 { 44, AhJh, AhTh, KhJh, KTs, JhTh, Jh9h, Th9h, 9h8h, 8h7h, 7h6h, 6h5h, KTo }

Re: 5/10 middle pair is the new top pair ?
 

i think i like the call, especially if you will be playing with the same villain regularly.

Re: 5/10 middle pair is the new top pair ?
 

1 vote for fold.

Re: 5/10 middle pair is the new top pair ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think you can call, it didnt feel like a call but giving him a range it seems v reasonable.


Hand 0: 43.975% 41.31% 02.67% 19805701 1277972.50 { JdTd }
Hand 1: 56.025% 53.36% 02.67% 25582866 1277972.50 { 44, AhJh, AhTh, KhJh, KTs, JhTh, Jh9h, Th9h, 9h8h, 8h7h, 7h6h, 6h5h, KTo }

[/ QUOTE ]

why isnt QJs in his range?

Re: 5/10 middle pair is the new top pair ?
 

who plays top 2 like that?

Re: 5/10 middle pair is the new top pair ?
 

you know, i dont fold alot, but i could find one here

Re: 5/10 middle pair is the new top pair ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
who plays top 2 like that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Same reason you play bottom set like that?

Re: 5/10 middle pair is the new top pair ?
 

u cant include all those [censored] OESDs and all those flushdraws in the stove. i hope ucy

Re: 5/10 middle pair is the new top pair ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
you know, i dont fold alot, but i could find one here

[/ QUOTE ]
sadly though i think getting to the turn in that fashion you technically "should" call, which then makes us rescind to the flop, and the real question should be 'should we call the donk,' and we need to label a donk range for that to be answered. also, is pushing the flop better? and, if calling only to fold a blank is better, the real play is folding the flop.

i guess im SOMEWHAT confused because villain "should" be just checkpushing QJ/44/anything good that is "made" and his draws. oh well!

Re: 5/10 middle pair is the new top pair ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
u cant include all those [censored] OESDs and all those flushdraws in the stove. i hope ucy

[/ QUOTE ]

nearly all of them have a straight draw + fd. i added KT as the "bluffing" hand to balance it out a bit.

Re: 5/10 middle pair is the new top pair ?
 

Well the stove is tricky cuz you have to balance the frequency for each type of hand. If you just include QJs and QJo that doesn't change much, unless you think this line is much more likely with 44,QJ than it is with the other hands.

I think the only way you can fold here is if you think he's doing this pretty often with just a plain one pair that's better than mine, maybe KQo or KJo.

I think Bobbo is right that once I call the flop I kinda have to call here so maybe the more interesting part is thinking about the flop line and how that affects the whole hand.

Re: 5/10 middle pair is the new top pair ?
 

i would fold flop definitely btw.

Re: 5/10 middle pair is the new top pair ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i would fold flop definitely btw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? This guys is "slag" - and lots of villains flop a flush draw and donk bet right into you. Folding middle pair seems weak.

Re: 5/10 middle pair is the new top pair ?
 

im weak [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: 5/10 middle pair is the new top pair ?
 

Pokerstove is one of the worst tools out there. Fold the turn. You said he sucks preflop and is very good postflop. He knows what you have. So fold.

Re: 5/10 middle pair is the new top pair ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
im weak [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

So weak that you 4-bet Q9 soooooted? Heh. No seriously. Would you really fold this to a donk bet from a "slightly lag" villain? And if so, can you explain?

Re: 5/10 middle pair is the new top pair ?
 

i think your hand does pretty poorly equity wise v his range on the flop. in addition, it looks as if youre going to be playing a huge pot if you call here so i think folding is better. basically, i dont see many ways that this hand will play out to be +ev if you call flop if he is at all aggro (and on a board like this he pretty much has to be).

edit: also, i think him donking full pot given its a 3 way pot supports the reasons for folding.

Re: 5/10 middle pair is the new top pair ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pokerstove is one of the worst tools out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you care to elaborate?

Re: 5/10 middle pair is the new top pair ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pokerstove is one of the worst tools out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you care to elaborate?

[/ QUOTE ]I did.

Re: 5/10 middle pair is the new top pair ?
 

Where?

Re: 5/10 middle pair is the new top pair ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pokerstove is one of the worst tools out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you care to elaborate?

[/ QUOTE ]I did.

[/ QUOTE ]
you said:

[ QUOTE ]

Pokerstove is one of the worst tools out there. Fold the turn. You said he sucks preflop and is very good postflop. He knows what you have. So fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhhhh... villain isnt putting hero on mid pair. thats for sure. also, if villain knew hero had mid pair, without a question it makes it even more of a call.

Re: 5/10 middle pair is the new top pair ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
u cant include all those [censored] OESDs and all those flushdraws in the stove. i hope ucy

[/ QUOTE ]

nearly all of them have a straight draw + fd. i added KT as the "bluffing" hand to balance it out a bit.

[/ QUOTE ] This guy must really love hearts to limp all those hands utg and call a raise.

Re: 5/10 middle pair is the new top pair ?
 

andreas - villain is BB

this is a fold

Re: 5/10 middle pair is the new top pair ?
 

oops. Still, he has to really like the hearts just to call all those hands.