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youngmachetes 11-26-2007 06:45 PM

NL10 combo draw in multiway limped pot, awkward spot
i was kinda lost on flop. should i have 3-bet/called from the donkbettor/caller (i assume shorty would've come along)?

is turn okay?

all 3 villains are relatively unknown, but probably loose/passive.

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players - Hand History Converter

UTG: $6.45
MP: $9.85
CO: $4.40
Hero (BTN): $21.40
SB: $15.45
BB: $13.10

Pre-Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $0.20</font>, MP folds, CO calls $0.20, Hero calls $0.20, SB calls $0.15, BB folds

Flop: ($0.90) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $0.10</font>, UTG calls $0.10, <font color="red">CO raises to $0.60</font>, Hero calls $0.60, 2 folds

Turn: ($2.30) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">CO bets $0.60</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $20.60 and is All-In</font>

Results: $3.50 Pot ($3.50 Rake)

Draidin 11-26-2007 06:57 PM

Re: NL10 combo draw in multiway limped pot, awkward spot
fold pre-flop. even with position, hand is marginal.
As played the calling the first raise was good. But your odds were cut down by the re-raise. Fold.
The turn didnt help. An all-in with air.

youngmachetes 11-26-2007 07:07 PM

Re: NL10 combo draw in multiway limped pot, awkward spot
i disagree with most of your post, but thanks.

on the turn his hand looks relatively weak, and i am doing okay vs. his range. i also felt like i had fold equity. i possibly should have flatted again.

preflop is fine, and i think folding the flop is awful.

Pokey 11-26-2007 07:15 PM

Re: NL10 combo draw in multiway limped pot, awkward spot
I would also fold preflop, especially for a raise and especially against a raise from UTG. The only things justifying the call are (1) you have the best position, (2) you have added padding, and (3) you have the kind of hand that hits VERY sneaky things and can get paid off BIG-time. However, I'd much prefer calling with 22 than 97s, just because you're unlikely to actually hit a great HAND on the flop; more likely you'll hit a DRAW, and that can make things even more expensive.

As played, that was just about the best flop you could have hoped for. You've got a pair AND a flush draw. The only remaining question is what to do next....

Getting 3-to-1 immediate odds with more money behind you cannot fold this hand. Personally, I'd be comfortable getting all-in on this flop, expecting to have 12 or more outs to a winner. This is one of those fun situations where you either have the best hand now or you have the best draw: no opponent can have a better flush draw than you AND have a better hand than you. That means you're either drawing to 12 outs against an overpair or you're drawing to 35 outs against an overpair. Either way, there's more than enough cash in the pot to justify getting all-in. The only possible fear is a set, and nothing has happened in this hand that indicates that to me.

So, what to do? The pot is small enough that nobody is automatically committed yet. ANY raise is going to look extremely strong, since it will be a three-bet. Also, the only person likely to call a push is CO, and he's the shortest of the bunch, so there's the least to win from him. I think I smooth-call the flop raise and hope that SB and/or UTG come along for the ride. NOTE: had CO smooth-called this would be an EASY raise, trapping dead money in the pot and acting directly on the right of the original bettor. Given that the raiser is on your right you can't raise without pushing people out of the pot, and this is a hand where you're happy to have company.

On the turn villain has $3 behind and the pot is $3.50 after you call. A push seems acceptable, since you're really not unhappy to see a fold. Raising to $2.50 or so might be a better choice if you wanted company, but heads-up with a pot that's very significant relative to stack sizes I think your best choice is to simply go for the cash. Walking away with the pot uncontested at this stage of the hand is a coup, and you're glad to win it outright now.

I want to emphasize the differences between the flop and the turn, here:

1. On the flop your implied odds are huge and the pot is small, since several players still in the pot have massive stacks relative to the pot. On the turn, the pot has become VERY large since the relative stacks have dropped from $15 down to $3. This fact changes the incentive away from building the pot towards winning it.

2. Since we're on the turn we now have less time to hit our hand. That means that our odds have decreased somewhat.

3. On the flop a push would have been a massive, MASSSIVE overbet. On the turn a push is less than the size of the pot, making it much easier to call and much more likely that you're ahead when called.

4. On the flop there were players to act behind you who were already facing a $0.50 raise. On the turn you were closing the action if you didn't bet.

Aside from the preflop action (which might be justifiable depending on your relative skill levels), I think you played this hand perfectly.

Genesis 11-26-2007 07:24 PM

Re: NL10 combo draw in multiway limped pot, awkward spot
Why wait for the turn? I guess if you want to keep SB in the hand and get more value when you hit it's debatable. But if you miss on the turn you may not be able to call profitably. As played just call the turn, he's giving you great odds.

Personally, I would play this as fast as possible and utilize any fold equity you may have. You have enough equity on this flop that if it goes all-in right now you are +EV almost always. I 3bet the flop and plan on calling an all-in.

youngmachetes 11-26-2007 07:27 PM

Re: NL10 combo draw in multiway limped pot, awkward spot
ty pokey, your flop/turn logic is identical to mine during the hand. i didn't mind getting it in on the flop, but with the awkward stacksize to potsize ratio i decided coldcalling was the best move. it never really occurred to me that preflop was bad, and i do agree that 22&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;97s in this spot. do you call with any suited connectors here?

simonpoker 11-26-2007 07:32 PM

Re: NL10 combo draw in multiway limped pot, awkward spot
Smooth Calling the flop is good you can hope that SB or UTG comes along.And All in on turn is ok, since you won't be sad if opp folds

Pokey 11-26-2007 07:41 PM

Re: NL10 combo draw in multiway limped pot, awkward spot
do you call with any suited connectors here?

[/ QUOTE ]
Personally I'd call with 97s in that situation, but my situation would be quite different. First of all, minraises are almost unheard-of at my tables, and anybody who does it usually has some huge, gaping holes in their game. Secondly, I'm quite comfortable playing postflop, whereas most $10NL players find themselves in unpleasant situations postflop where they don't know how to react. A hand like 22 is VERY easy to play postflop, even in a raised pot. A hand like 97s either misses completely and becomes an easy fold (most likely), hits VERY solidly and becomes easy to play (least likely), or hits kinda-sorta and becomes rather difficult to play, even in position. That means that most of the hands you're playing are going to be awkward on the flop, and that's not really a profitable situation for a developing player. If you're already quite comfortable playing postflop then go ahead and play hands like this; otherwise, let them go preflop and wait for hands where you're at a much clearer advantage. These guys are too loose preflop and too loose postflop, so there really isn't a reason to try to maximize every last edge, especially if the potential upside on the hand is relatively small and the potential downside is relatively large.

The best way to win at $10NL is to play VERY tightly, then get VERY aggressive when you hit solidly. Your opponents will be too unattentive to notice and will pay you off over and over again, and you'll make a fortune. Save the fancy stuff for when you hit SSNL or MSNL.

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