Free Will
 

The most powerful argument against free will is also the simplest; what could provide it? When put in these stark terms it is easy to see that free will apologists can not provide a rational answer. The ramifications of this are troubling, to say the least.

Re: Free Will
 

[ QUOTE ]
The most powerful argument against free will is also the simplest; what could provide it? When put in these stark terms it is easy to see that free will apologists can not provide a rational answer. The ramifications of this are troubling, to say the least.

[/ QUOTE ]

What could possibly provide consciousness? It makes no sense, the consciousness apologisers cannot provide an answer.

Also if you truly believed free will didn't exist why the hell would you try to argue your point? Everyone's views have already been pre determined.

Re: Free Will
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also if you truly believed free will didn't exist why the hell would you try to argue your point? Everyone's views have already been pre determined.

[/ QUOTE ]

My current position - Im betting that freewill doesn't exist, and he can't help arguing his point. And that an evolution and natural selection of ideas and tendencies happens to create an illusion of free (and useful) will.

I arrived here in response to the idea that if we do not have free will we shouldn't punish criminals. But actually, societies who have managed (coincidentally almost) to set up the right criminal justice feedback loop end up training their offspring (deterministically) not to be criminals, and then that society is more succesful and reproduces.

EDIT: ...And so there is nothing wrong with accepting determinsism in conjunction with urges towards morality, "free" thinking etc, its just how we are hardwired, and it has ensured our success so far.

Re: Free Will
 

"
What could possibly provide consciousness? It makes no sense, the consciousness apologisers cannot provide an answer."

The brain, duh.

"Also if you truly believed free will didn't exist why the hell would you try to argue your point? "

Don't you see, I have no choice in the matter.

Re: Free Will
 

[ QUOTE ]
"
What could possibly provide consciousness? It makes no sense, the consciousness apologisers cannot provide an answer."

The brain, duh.

"Also if you truly believed free will didn't exist why the hell would you try to argue your point? "

Don't you see, I have no choice in the matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is "the brain duh" not an acceptable answer for free will?

Re: Free Will
 

Before free will discussed in any kind of fashion, please define it first.

Re: Free Will
 

"Why is "the brain duh" not an acceptable answer for free will?"

This is really lazy arguing on your part :P Free will means uncaused will; conciousness can be caused (in this case, by the brain).

Re: Free Will
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Why is "the brain duh" not an acceptable answer for free will?"

This is really lazy arguing on your part :P Free will means uncaused will; conciousness can be caused (in this case, by the brain).

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it so crazy. Rocks don't have consciousness humans do rocks fon't have free will humans do. Something as yet unknown in the human brain allows decisions and choices to be made as a result of outside influences + X where X is free will.

Re: Free Will
 

[ QUOTE ]
The most powerful argument against free will is also the simplest; what could provide it?

[/ QUOTE ]
Something non-physical. We know some things happen with no physical cause (ie the decay of some particles) so non-physical causes of our actions cant be ruled out yet.

NB - To be clear I'm not presenting this as an argument for free will, merely attempting an answer to the question.

Re: Free Will
 

[ QUOTE ]
We know some things happen with no physical cause (ie the decay of some particles)

[/ QUOTE ]


Come again?