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AZK 11-30-2007 12:16 PM

Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
This is coming up because we just started a psych. unit in medical school, but I started discussing this with several colleagues/friends and was kinda of interested by the results.

So, like most boys, I was often punished as a kid for doing retarded [censored]. Totally reasonable, yet out of all my friends, I was the only one that was hit my parents when I stepped out of line. By hit, I mean, my father either smacked me on my ass, and I can only remmeber 3 times when he hit me in the face. These were not beatings. No belt or any other object was used. I didn't suffer any permanent brain damage (or so I assume). I haven't grown up using violence to solve my problems and I don't really buy into the whole people raised with violence in the household are more violent than others. I am not a violent person.

My friends are floored. They cannot believe my parents raised me this way and disagree with it very strongly. I don't think any of us were raised particuarly better or worse than each other, but we are all in the same environment, so it's not an accurate representation of child rearing.

They asked if I would hit my kids if they stepped out of line, and my instinct was "probably." They also flipped out about this, it's probably because how I was raised. So it seems natural. I don't know whether it's important or not (it definitely isn't now) but I remember being the most well-behaved kid compared to my peers when I was little. I frequently remember my parents getting compliments from other parents.

Totally random side note: My parents also frequently did the good cop/bad cop routine, but this was pretty unintentional, my mom was a total pushover, my dad was the hard ass. Ironically (not so ironic?) I am closer with my dad and more trusting and have better time discussing difficult issues. It could just be a function of overlapping interests in life and outlooks.


So.....

1) Were you spanked as a kid?

2) Do you spank your kids?

3) Additional thoughts?

RunDownHouse 11-30-2007 12:21 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
I was spanked and experienced the gamut, from hand to spoon to belt. I was never hit in the face, but I was once thrown across a room.

Don't have kids, but like you my thought is I probably will spank them, although I think it will be used more sparingly than I got it. I was also really well-behaved as a kid, maybe too much so.

By-Tor 11-30-2007 12:36 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
kids these days are soft. i'm going with dr. denis leary on this one...

[ QUOTE ]
I am sick and tired of hearing that [censored] speech. You know? These people come out of rehab they always have the same story. "Well you know, I became an alcoholic because my parents didn't love me enough. And then I became a junkie because my parents didn't love me enough. And I went into hypnosis and therapy and I found out that parents used to hit me."
.
.
Hey! My parents used to beat the living [censored] out of me! Ok? And looking back on it, I'm glad they did! And I'm looking forward to beating the [censored] out of my kids, aren't you? For no reason whatsoever.
.
.
*thbbt* "What'd you hit me for?"
.
"Shutup and get out there and mow the lawn for Christs sake!"
.
.
There's therapy for ya! Mowing the lawn and crying at the same time.
.
.
"The Leary kids in therapy again. Their lawn looks great, it's unbelieveable!"

[/ QUOTE ]

AZK 11-30-2007 12:38 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
ha...i vaguely remember this, i think he went off about it on rescue me as well...he is [censored] great. too bad the last season of rescue me sucked a fat one.

MissT74 11-30-2007 12:44 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
Another great question to ask would be how old are you?

I'm 33 and we were raised with the belt. It wasn't socially unacceptable, it was the "norm". Now a days, or even if you're in your teens, I can't see many people answering "Yes".

I have a 15 year old daughter and she was raised with spanking, by the hand. Even though I was raised with the belt and I believe it made me a better person, who I am today, I could never stand the thought of hitting her with a belt, but the hand was absolutely allowed.

The last time I hit her was when she was about 6-7 years old, said something VERY off the wall and disrespectful to me so I open hand popped her in the mouth. I think she was more shocked that I had done that then it acutally hurting, and proceeded to cry because she couldn't believe that Mommy had hurt her. (We LOL about it now)

T

AZK 11-30-2007 12:46 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
I'm 24. I remember the first time my dad hit me in the face because like you said, I was totally floored that he just reached across the table and slapped me. It hurt, but the same way a slap does and then goes away, it was more the shock that really jolted me. I was probably 12 or something.

BeerMoney 11-30-2007 12:58 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 

I'm all for disciplining kids. I was scared to death of my dad, but he never hit me. Guess the fear was worse. My mother hit me, but I think there's a difference in being hit by mom, and being hit by dad. When mom hits you, its not gonna be fun, but you'll be ok. Dad's a different story.

Overall, I think hitting kids is unnecessary.. Maybe early on its ok.. Once they get past 6 or 7, something else is necessary. Personally, I don't really even like hitting my dogs.

astroglide 11-30-2007 01:13 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
[ QUOTE ]
My friends are floored. They cannot believe my parents raised me this way

[/ QUOTE ]

a shock response really blows my mind, and i have to think that these people are out of touch. people still hit their kids.

JackInDaCrak 11-30-2007 01:56 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
I was swatted upside the head or on the ass several times, and I came out allright, so far.

cookieb 11-30-2007 02:09 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
I was spanked, occasionally with a belt or switch, and I still wonder why. My brother, sister, and I were really good kids, no problems of any note through high school. I certainly don't hold anything against my mother and father, they were incredible but I think they spanked just because they thought they were supposed to. (I am 32 btw)

I will try not to spank my daughter, mostly because I would probably be doing it out of anger instead of as a teaching point. If you are spanking out of anger it is definitely a parenting problem, imo.

0netime0nly 11-30-2007 02:21 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
Lol. I'm 20, was hit with the spatula a couple times by my mom, and gripped and shaked by my dad a few times. Wasn't that great a kid always, talked back to them a decent amount.

Quite frequently I was grounded, and had to stay in my room, could go nowhere else in the house. I did not speak a single word to them, they didn't speak a single word to me either for as long as a week, and quite often two weeks.

I like them okay now, but now that I'm living on my own, I don't really care to see them much, if I didn't see them for a year, probably wouldn't miss them or care at all.

El Diablo 11-30-2007 02:36 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
AZK,

I was never hit. Mainly just given huge guilt trips.

James Boston 11-30-2007 02:48 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
AZK-

I got the belt pretty regularly as a child, until it stopped hurting. Then, they moved to taking stuff from me (CD player, TV, whatever), because that became more behavior modifying. My mom did slap me in the face once when I was about 15, but I totally deserved it.

I'm fine....great relationship with my folks....have no kids, but no issues with spanking FWIW. I'm 27 BTW.

astroglide 11-30-2007 02:49 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
[ QUOTE ]
I will try not to spank my daughter, mostly because I would probably be doing it out of anger instead of as a teaching point.

[/ QUOTE ]

thinking about things in that way seems like a really good idea.

olliejen 11-30-2007 02:58 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
[ QUOTE ]
My friends are floored. They cannot believe my parents raised me this way and disagree with it very strongly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly none of your friends are immigrants or children of immigrants... [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

ChicagoTroy 11-30-2007 03:02 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
My mom slapped me once or twice for doing something really dangerous and I think it was just instinct/fear on her part that I was doing something dumb enough to get really hurt. Never from pop. Short of legit beatings, nobody is getting injured in most of these scenarios and being shocked, shocked! is completely silly.

I know a couple disciplinarian nannies in England who are HUGE on the "time out" thing over corporal punishment. They think it's the great American Contribution to Child Rearing or something. You slap a kid, and he's briefly shocked, not hurt, and that's about it. You bore the [censored] out of him for 15 minutes and it feels like an eternity, and can be used far more liberally.

Big TR 11-30-2007 03:03 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
30 year old father of a 5 year old.

I was occasionally spanked with the stylish 1970's 3 inch wide white belt and/or wooden spoon. I turned out fine. My brother, not so much. This small sample size evaluation leads me to believe that beatings don't translate to how you become as an adult.

I have smacked my son's hands a couple times when he was doing something dangerous after being told not to do it, like touching the stove. I smacked his mouth once when he talked back. My wife was never hit growing up and has never struck my son. She doesn't like when I do it.

I feel bad when I do it, but don't think I am causing irreparable harm to my son. My wife and I find it is much more effective to take away his favorite game or to send him to the corner for 5 minutes to get the wanted behavior.

youtalkfunny 11-30-2007 03:07 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
I'm 40. I was hit plenty, but can't name a single incident where I didn't deserve it.

The worst part of my childhood is that all the hitting led to lying. I didn't want to get hit, so I denied everything, every time. Stepping up and accepting responsibility did nothing towards getting a lighter punishment, and getting caught in the lie did nothing to increase the punishment. I lied non-stop.

I even started lying about trivial things. Lying became my way of life.

Now I'm older. I hate lying and liars. I hate lying liars.

My kids are now 10, 9, and 8. There is almost no hitting. We talk about hitting a lot. The threat is always there, and they know that it's not an empty threat.

But the belt only comes out for two offenses: blatant disrespect, or lying. In either case, the child is given verbal warnings to fix the problem before the belt comes out (because I really don't want to hit the kids). I'd estimate that the belt comes out less than once a year.

When they were in diapers, light hand-slapping or spanking was more common. Once the boundaries were established (and respected), the hitting quickly became unnecessary.

It is very, very important to note that although hitting is a crucial part of my child-rearing plan, it is an extremely SMALL part of it. It is one tool in the toolbox. It's the tool at the bottom of the box, the one you almost never use--but when it's needed, it's invaluable.

My standard disclaimer in all my parenting posts: Yeah, my kids are thriving, and I deserve much of the credit for that...but they're not teens yet. The true test of my so-called expertise still lies ahead. Right now, I'm the best hitter in the minor leagues--but I've yet to face big league heat.

(I wonder if there's something Freudian about choosing the word "hitter" to describe my parenting skills.)

ChicagoTroy 11-30-2007 03:24 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My friends are floored. They cannot believe my parents raised me this way and disagree with it very strongly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly none of your friends are immigrants or children of immigrants... [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL, I remember seeing a French lady in her 60's slap her daughter who was about 30, in public, over practically nothing. I damn near laughed my ass off.

goofball 11-30-2007 03:25 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
[ QUOTE ]
AZK,

I was never hit. Mainly just given huge guilt trips.

[/ QUOTE ]

renodoc 11-30-2007 03:35 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
(she) Raised 8 boys only I turned bad,
didn't get the whipping's that the other ones had.

'Chair 11-30-2007 03:38 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
26, spanked (hand/belt on butt/legs) until the age where grounding became more effective. I will probably spank my kids.

Aces McGee 11-30-2007 03:39 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
I was never spanked, and don't approve of spanking children(then again, I'm 27 with no kids). However, I also don't think it's THAT big a deal.

Slapping young kids in the face, on the other hand, I have a big problem with. Not necessarily due to the risk of physical harm - although I think such risk exists and shouldn't be taken lightly -- but the message of "I can hit someone when they upset me or do something they shouldn't" isn't one I think kids should get.

-McGee

RunDownHouse 11-30-2007 03:56 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
[ QUOTE ]
the message of "I can hit someone when they upset me or do something they shouldn't" isn't one I think kids should get.

[/ QUOTE ]
I dunno, I think the message of, "If I do something I shouldn't, I'm going to get hurt" is a message most people could use more of. I acknowledge the argument that mental pain can be worse than physical, but there's plenty of evidence of all kinds that physical punishment can be deterrent without being debilitating.

Boris 11-30-2007 04:01 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
I think this issue is blown way out of proportion to its importance. When it comes to discipline I think by far the most important thing is that the punishment fit the crime. Kids know what is fair. Unfair punishment (basically abuse), whether its spankings or groundings or yelling or whatever, I think leads to messed up people.

jsaund22 11-30-2007 04:22 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
[ QUOTE ]
This is coming up because we just started a psych. unit in medical school, but I started discussing this with several colleagues/friends and was kinda of interested by the results.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not a doctor. I don't play one on TV. I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. But here's my thoughts:

I was spanked as a child. Never hit in the face, but belts, hands, wooden spoons, "switches" ("Boy, go cut me a switch to spank you with!"), and even a 1/4" thick plastic paddle my dad made especially for tanning my rear-end when I screwed up.

I'm not scarred, and I'm not a sociopath. I have a close relative my age who was never spanked, and he's the one who ended up as a drug dealer and in prison for assisting with hiding a body after one of his buddies executed someone.

I'm an IS professional, and I think you'll learn the same thing that I learned not too long after I got out of school -- reality and theory are very often mutually exclusive. The theory is that spanking kids will cause them to become violent, aggressive, out-of-control psychos. Reality is a different story, however.

Take a good look around at one of the most visible segments of society -- the celebrity. You have people like Paris Hilton and Britney Spears who have probably never been disciplined at all showing their ass (both literally and figuratively). Now look at people like country music stars. I'm not a fan of country music, but you pretty much know that these people were disciplined as kids, simply because of the culture they're part of. Very rarely do they do something incredibly stupid. Paris and Britney? Stupid on a daily basis.

As I said, reality and theory differ wildly, and I think you are smart enough to be able to separate theory from reality.

AbreuTime 11-30-2007 04:24 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
I was never unfairly spanked, but I was often unfairly grounded/sent to timeout. There was nothing more aggravating than being unfairly punished. My parents usually did the grounding thing, but sometimes it did not work (I would destroy proporty in my room while grounded... dragging a comb back and forth over wooden dressers and digging rivets into the side of the piano with the comb), and I was spanked.

I'm 24, and I'll spank my kids if they deserve it.

Aces McGee 11-30-2007 04:26 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the message of "I can hit someone when they upset me or do something they shouldn't" isn't one I think kids should get.

[/ QUOTE ]
I dunno, I think the message of, "If I do something I shouldn't, I'm going to get hurt" is a message most people could use more of. I acknowledge the argument that mental pain can be worse than physical, but there's plenty of evidence of all kinds that physical punishment can be deterrent without being debilitating.

[/ QUOTE ]

RDH, I'm not sure you've understood the point I was trying to make.

Let's say you whack a kid for doing something he's not supposed to do. Maybe he learns that he's not supposed to do that. But now he sees his younger sister do the same thing. Can you really blame him if he smacks her?

In my opinion, it is very difficult to use corporal punishment to deter kids from misbehaving without giving them the idea that it's okay to hit others who make them upset.

-McGee

HDPM 11-30-2007 05:01 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the message of "I can hit someone when they upset me or do something they shouldn't" isn't one I think kids should get.

[/ QUOTE ]
I dunno, I think the message of, "If I do something I shouldn't, I'm going to get hurt" is a message most people could use more of. I acknowledge the argument that mental pain can be worse than physical, but there's plenty of evidence of all kinds that physical punishment can be deterrent without being debilitating.

[/ QUOTE ]

RDH, I'm not sure you've understood the point I was trying to make.

Let's say you whack a kid for doing something he's not supposed to do. Maybe he learns that he's not supposed to do that. But now he sees his younger sister do the same thing. Can you really blame him if he smacks her?

In my opinion, it is very difficult to use corporal punishment to deter kids from misbehaving without giving them the idea that it's okay to hit others who make them upset.

-McGee

[/ QUOTE ]


I think kids are smarter than this. I know there are people who don't want to use anything they consider violent, but they still use techniques that if an adult used them would be considered violent. I mean a time out given from one adult to another is called kidnapping or false imprisonment, it is a crime. Forcing somebody to stay in their room is kidnapping if one adult does it to another. The important thing is context. It is OK for one adult to lock another one up if he is a jailer and somebody is lawfully sent to jail. It is not OK to lock somebody up just because. Likewise it is more than OK to use violence to defend yourself and kids. What if somebody tried to forcibly kidnap a kid - would a parent not use violence to resist it? Well, violence is pretty damn good in that situtaion in response to something that horrible.

So, IMO context matters and I agree with Boris. A good parent who smacks a kid justifiably is not creating a sociopath. A bad parent using emotionally abusive but physically non-violent means can screw their kid up. And I think kids can tell the difference and can learn when physical force may be OK. IMO it isn't hypocritical to teach a kid he can't hit people unjustifiably while smacking the kid occasionally. He knows the difference between what you as a parent can and should do and what he can do to/with peers or siblings. The kid can't give his sister a timeout if she upsets him, just as he can't hit her anytime he's upset.

This is also not to say discipline has to be physical. But as Boris said, it does have to be reasonable coming from a parent who loves the kid. If those things are there the particular technique is less important IMO.

NoahSD 11-30-2007 06:05 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My friends are floored. They cannot believe my parents raised me this way

[/ QUOTE ]

a shock response really blows my mind, and i have to think that these people are out of touch. people still hit their kids.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've learned that a few of my close friends were hit when they were little, and every time it shocked me.

I wasn't shocked because of the fact that parents hit their children, I was shocked because kids who I think turned out really well were hit when they were little.

I guess this is probably just because my parents told me a ton of times when I was little that hitting kids is wrong, and it's not a subject that comes up often enough for me to have really come to my own conclusion.

So I don't really have an opinion on the issue, I just have a gut reaction that it's a bad thing. I imagine a lot of other people are the same way.

beanie 11-30-2007 06:12 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
I was spanked when I was a kid. Eventually you get desensitized to it. I don't really feel I was too negatively affected by it but I don't believe in it for my parenting skills. As I got to be a teen my dad and I came to blows more than once.

Thing about it is I thought then as I do now that my dad was having a bad day and it was sort of his release. Being a father now it is very frustrating, particularly right around dinner time, and a lot of patience is required.

I would feel foolish if I could think myself out of how to beat Ace King and couldn't give some thought to not hitting my child. I think it is a short cut to actual parenting and could potentially have bad affects. It didn't in my case or yours but it would seem it could in others.

RustedCorpse 11-30-2007 06:25 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
This issue is one reason I think I will never have children.

I'm 28 and my parents beat the living hell out of me. Both my mother and my father, my father not as often but when he did it was pretty severe (cracked hip, ruptured cornea, broken rib) My mother on the other hand would torment a little and often use anything from tennis rackets to wiffle ball bats.

Eventually, as I left home, my father was diagnosed with severe depression and diabetes. Once getting treated for that he mellowed out considerably, my younger brother and sister as a result never ever really got beaten.

The strange thing is on a comparable scale I'm far more socially balanced/disciplined than my brother and my sister. My brother has had multiple run in's with the law on a level that borders on stupid. My sister is a complete trainwreck in almost all aspects of her life, including child abandonment and two failed marriages.

Looking back I figured I deserved some beatings, probably not to the level of severity that occured, however I don't really harbor animosity to my family over it, I think raising children is hard and they probably did the best they could for them.

I think if I ever had children I'd do a better job, yet at the same time I often wonder if many abusive parents think the same thing. I think the right answer is probably somewhere in the middle.

astroglide 11-30-2007 06:40 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't shocked because of the fact that parents hit their children, I was shocked because kids who I think turned out really well were hit when they were little.

[/ QUOTE ]

i would wager that a huge majority of baby boomers were hit by their parents. have you considered how many of them turned out really well?

miajag 11-30-2007 06:40 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
I only recall actually being hit a couple times, but the threat was made a lot and definitely helped keep me in line. Stuff like my mom giving me the silent treatment for a couple days when she was really mad at me was soooo much worse than any physical punishment I ever got. I don't think there's anything at all wrong with spanking, it's a fine way to control behavior without emotionally or physically scarring the child.

astroglide 11-30-2007 06:43 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
[ QUOTE ]
I'm 28 and my parents beat the living hell out of me. Both my mother and my father, my father not as often but when he did it was pretty severe (cracked hip, ruptured cornea, broken rib) My mother on the other hand would torment a little and often use anything from tennis rackets to wiffle ball bats.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.theonion.com/content/file...rticle1177.jpg

sheesh!

miajag 11-30-2007 06:43 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
[ QUOTE ]

I was shocked because kids who I think turned out really well were hit when they were little.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's ridiculous. We're not talking about daily brutal beatings here, just occasional slaps/spankings when the kid is really out of line. I highly doubt that alone would ever cause a kid to not "turn out really well" if he would have otherwise.

Golden_Rhino 11-30-2007 06:49 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
I'm 33 and I used to get hit with the wooden spoon by my mom. It wouldn't be a savage beating; just a quick swat to the butt. My dad only hit me once, and he kinda lost control, so he never did it again.

I don't have kids, but I assume that I will spank them when I do have them.

adios 11-30-2007 06:50 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
A swat (not a hard one either) is arguably effective at very young ages to get a childs attention IMO. My experience was and is to refrain from using corporal punishment. The hitting in the face stuff is a definite no-no IMO. I was spanked but I grew up in a different period. I don't think it's a good way to go FWIW. Think about the times that you can remember getting spanked and think if an alternate form of discipline would have worked just as well or better.

MissT74 11-30-2007 06:52 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
I think we need to stick with the OP's original thoughts/ideas about spanking vs. outright abuse. There's a HUGE difference and if you can't see that then you were never spanked at all growing up, imo.

T

istewart 11-30-2007 06:53 PM

Re: Child Raising - Discipline issues
 
http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/5...huntingde4.jpg


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