This is an insta.....
 

2/4 NL on FTP (6 handed).

Unfortunately no reads since this is like my second orbit. Nothing spectatcular at the table has happenned.

Effective stacks $415.

I raise to $14 from the HJ with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. BB calls.

($30) Flop comes K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. BB checks, I bet $25, BB calls.

($80) Turn comes 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. BB checks, I bet $70, BB raises $180, I....

I feel I am confident on what I should do here but just want some second opinions.

Re: This is an insta.....
 

1 vote for fold

Re: This is an insta.....
 

I would fold w/o reads.

Re: This is an insta.....
 

shove...

Re: This is an insta.....
 

i rly dont think this board texture makes this a fold but i could be wrong

Re: This is an insta.....
 

grit teeth, think why the [censored] when i flop my A or K with AK does some dick have me beat and fold. shove if on tilt.

Re: This is an insta.....
 

yeah this seems like a fold. most peoples default is to c/r a flush draw on the flop, 45 is unlikely w/ pf action... there really arent just that many semibluffing hands he could have here, and i doubt hes turning TPGK or like TT into a bluff.

Re: This is an insta.....
 

shove i would never fold

Re: This is an insta.....
 

yes actually disregard my post. i would shove.

Re: This is an insta.....
 

I think this is close given the board. I really don't fault either a fold or a shove tbh. I probably shove though.

Re: This is an insta.....
 

1 more vote for shove. Not many boards i would felt TPTK against an unknown with this action, but this is one.

Re: This is an insta.....
 

Interested in why a dry board makes you more willing to felt rather then being more afraid of a monster. I mean, does the fact that he can't be repping much except a set make this move very strong. And if so, then should we be looking to take this line with some bluffs then?

Re: This is an insta.....
 

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shove i would never fold

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Re: This is an insta.....
 

No reads and BB presumably has no reads on you. Folding feels ugly but I think it's the right thing to do.

Re: This is an insta.....
 

fold i would never shove

Re: This is an insta.....
 

[ QUOTE ]
Interested in why a dry board makes you more willing to felt rather then being more afraid of a monster. I mean, does the fact that he can't be repping much except a set make this move very strong. And if so, then should we be looking to take this line with some bluffs then?

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im not suggesting he'd fold often, i just think there are too many combo draws in his range to fold. There arent many 2pr hands im afraid of here maybe K8s or 86s, but thats it.

Re: This is an insta.....
 

[ QUOTE ]
No reads and BB presumably has no reads on you. Folding feels ugly but I think it's the right thing to do.

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Re: This is an insta.....
 

The reasons I have a hard time shoving:

1) His range is limited to powerhouses in which we are drawing thin to dead if called.
2) He won't call if he was infact bluffing.
3) A bluff by him here seems silly since we are obviously calling with any reasonable holding (atleast this is the sentiment i get from the majority of posters thus far).
4) The size of his raise screams value town mofo...valuetown.

Why I hate folding:

1) We got AK on K crap board. May be best hand.
2) Seems like we could get exploited if he is perceptive enough to pick up on our line.
3) It may be worth the gamble to get a read on him for later.


If anyone can think of more pros and cons, by all means chime in...

Oh, and a few have mentioned the dryness of the board. To those, is this fact advantageous to our holding or the opposite?

Re: This is an insta.....
 

shove i would never fold

Re: This is an insta.....
 

shove

Re: This is an insta.....
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold i would never shove

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Re: This is an insta.....
 

call?

Re: This is an insta.....
 

fold, if you dont fold, call with intention of calling any river.

Re: This is an insta.....
 

i cant see why a shove makes sense. he has seen you raise preflop, bet near pot flop, bet near pot turn, does he really think he can bluff you off this with a very small check raise? (especially a raise with stinks of 'you will be pot committed to call $100 or all in $200 odd on the river')

if he has a weaker K, then he is just plain stupid playing like this, and a) most players aren't this stupid and b) if he is this stupid just try to pick him off later.

Re: This is an insta.....
 

To those saying 'shove I would never fold', how much does this spot change with KQ? KJ?

Re: This is an insta.....
 

If he doesnt know you and you dont know him why would he raise you on the turn after you bet the flop without it helping him and no draws for him to semibluff except 8 and the fd. what is the value in youshoving? I would definitely have k8 suited or any two pair and raise the turn here. When a guy bets the flop and the turn he is putting you on a hand to pay him off. Pretty sure you are beat.

Re: This is an insta.....
 

I usually calldown, sometimes fold when I'm playing excellent.

Re: This is an insta.....
 

Fold. check call then check raise on turn. TPTK is never good here.

Re: This is an insta.....
 

[ QUOTE ]
shove i would never fold

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Re: This is an insta.....
 

I'm really surprised at the amount of shovers over folders.

I would think a FD raises the flop, leads the turn or calls the turn but not c/r'ng it. And with no history, making this move with a big K (KT+) seems totally unorthodox in that it turns their hand into a bluff and makes them stack off really lite.

Because of the overwhelming shove responses I think double checking a set/2pair has serious EV+ given that everybody is stacking off here. What am I missing people? What should I give more credence to in order to want to shove more so then fold? Enlighten me....

Re: This is an insta.....
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is close given the board. I really don't fault either a fold or a shove tbh. I probably shove though.

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thread over.

Re: This is an insta.....
 

josh, people want to shove here because all of the made hands that we are stacking off on the turn with (AK+, presumably other Kx) are definitely stacking off on the flop. in addition to possibly inducing a thin call from a PP <Kx, he could get us to shove a draw by putting more action in on the flop.

if he has us beat 86 is much more likely than a set and we'll see delayed semibluffs enough (against which we have greatly increased equity on the turn) to make shoving OK.

all that aside, people play badly and i would expect a "badly" played set more than a badly played semibluff, so it's still close.

Re: This is an insta.....
 

his range includes tp too.

Re: This is an insta.....
 

[ QUOTE ]
his range includes tp too.

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absolutely and i should have mentioned that

Re: This is an insta.....
 

Justin,

All valid points. My problem with this hand though is the smallish turn c/r. Also I am not convinced that a set played this way is played poorly at all. Because of the dry board, it allows for more FPS by him.

Your point about stacking off on the flop with this hand....Yes I will almost always. But I'm not sure it is fair to say that because you will do one action on the flop justifies doing it on the turn. Because the turn was a blank actually makes me more wary of this line taken by him then if it was an action card.

And again, him having TP doesn't fit with this line. I absolutely won't discount it from his range but I think it is fair to say that it lurkes way down at the bottom.

Re: This is an insta.....
 

This is 33 or 66 pretty often, k8 shouldnt really be in his range, might be 86. A small % of the time it will be a delayed semibluff with a FD as pointed already, and it's not that badly done as it's almost the same as going all in from our point of view because it commits us if we call, so that has to have some good FE and a good player might exploit it.

Readless it's a very tough spot, decide upon tilt level. Fold against a nit, shove otherwise is what i'd do.

Re: This is an insta.....
 

its a fold

Re: This is an insta.....
 

Agree with Parlay and MDMA <font color="white"> whoever gets leveled by this is really dumb </font>

Re: This is an insta.....
 

I'm a huge station, and I would fold this unless I had a read or villain was a total monkey. Given the action, I think you're looking at a set here a ton. fold&gt;call&gt;shove IMO.

Re: This is an insta.....
 

[ QUOTE ]
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fold i would never shove

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