The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

$20-$40 near you:

Villian has just enough of a brain to get himself into trouble. He is capable of playing weak made hands or hand/draw combinations fairly strong. He is break-even at best. He views me as a TAG but likely thinks I am over agressive/trying to run him over at times, which is definitely true.

UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, I raise in MP with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Villan calls in BB, limpers call.

Flop: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Action: Checked to me, I bet, BB raises, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, I 3-bone, BB caps, UTG calls, I call.

Turn: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB bets, UTG folds, and I insta-raise

Holla?

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

this situation looks like the opposite of a free showdown raise.

1) villain is never folding a better hand
2) you have a crapload of outs if behind
3) theres a very good chance you're ahead anyway

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

Regardless of what Kit said (which is definitely true and right along the lines of the free showdown raise talks we've been having), I still like the turn raise. You have 19 outs if behind (10 FH and 9 flush) and you could easily be ahead.

I doubt you're getting 3-bet here much because you have the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], as well.

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

btw only 7 for flush if we are behind...

are you folding the river if he does 3-barrel the turn and you dont improve? - could he 3-bet with a smaller set or even two pr hoping you have AsKc etc?

if he is going to pay you off a lot lighter because you are bulldozer in his eyes i would bet the river if he just calls the 2-bet...

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

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btw only 7 for flush if we are behind...

are you folding the river if he does 3-barrel the turn and you dont improve? - could he 3-bet with a smaller set or even two pr hoping you have AsKc etc?

if he is going to pay you off a lot lighter because you are bulldozer in his eyes i would bet the river if he just calls the 2-bet...

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Only 7 outs for a flush if behind? Um, we have top set and the nut flush redraw, so we've got 7 flush outs and 10 boat outs = 17 outs.

Rob

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

Easy raise on the turn.

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
btw only 7 for flush if we are behind...

are you folding the river if he does 3-barrel the turn and you dont improve? - could he 3-bet with a smaller set or even two pr hoping you have AsKc etc?

if he is going to pay you off a lot lighter because you are bulldozer in his eyes i would bet the river if he just calls the 2-bet...

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Only 7 outs for a flush if behind? Um, we have top set and the nut flush redraw, so we've got 7 flush outs and 10 boat outs = 17 outs.

Rob

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I am sure he meant 7 FLUSH outs, not 9 FLUSH outs as the other poster said (and of course the 10 boat/quad outs).

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

Are you really checking the river when the 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] rolls off?

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

why do i want to valuebet the river if he doesn't 3bet the turn?

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

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why do i want to valuebet the river if he doesn't 3bet the turn?

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I'm not sure what your saying here, but I'm not checking the river if he just calls the turn.

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

Because we still beat 55/99/TT/9Ts/K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T/and various other other hands.

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

this is what's known as an easy value raise

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

Easy turn raise, and bet the river as well. If he shows you a small flush oh well.

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

I gave a lot of thought to this. I'm not sure what the answer would have been at the time, but I believe the correct answer against this player is YES.

Aside from value, I raised the turn because I held the As, which, against this player, and most players, means that after the flop action, he just can't/won't 3-bet the turn, even with A King high flush for fear that I am holding the nuts.

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

If he 3 bets me on the turn and leads the river, he is beating me.

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

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If he 3 bets me on the turn and leads the river, he is beating me.

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You answered this already, he won't/can't cause you have the trump and have put in a ton of action.

(not necessarily true as I somehow managed to go 5 bets on the flop and 5 on the turn when I flopped the nuts vs. a Jack high flush but that was a much different circumstance)

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

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If he 3 bets me on the turn and leads the river, he is beating me.

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He didn't three bet you on the turn, right? Therefore, I think it is pretty unlikely that he has a flush. ie, if he has a decent flush, eg, Kigh or Queen high, then it would be hard for him to put you on a bigger flush combo that you are holding given your preflop raise.

If he held a small flush he may not have three bet the turn, awaiting to see a non-flush card on the river. In this case, I would expect him to donk the river.

Either way, you should get a least one more bet in on the river.

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

I don't want to reveal the turn action. But at the time, I wasn't expecting a riase even from a king high flush.

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

You have to raise this turn because you are ahead a good portion of the time and have better than a 30% to improve on the river if you are behind. I don't expect a three bet.

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

I guess my real question is- do I bet a blank river-- that;s waht I meant. If I am not betting a blank river then it is a free showdown raise. If I am betting a blank river, then its a value raise. etc etc etc

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

I think this turn raise is for value, but it's close. I think this is where you could use a live read to help with what to do on a blank river, but I lean towards bet if you aren't 3 bet on the turn.

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

Call turn, fold river un-improuved.

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

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I guess my real question is- do I bet a blank river-- that;s waht I meant. If I am not betting a blank river then it is a free showdown raise. If I am betting a blank river, then its a value raise. etc etc etc

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1) check behind on the river if you don't improve.

2) This is a 100% value raise. You don't have to fire again on the river for there to be value.

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

Hmm. I don't understand. If I am raising the turn, and it's for value, then I think I am ahead vs. his range. Thus, shouldn't I also bet the river for value if a blank hits.?

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

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Call turn, fold river un-improuved.

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l
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Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

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I gave a lot of thought to this. I'm not sure what the answer would have been at the time, but I believe the correct answer against this player is YES.

Aside from value, I raised the turn because I held the As, which, against this player, and most players, means that after the flop action, he just can't/won't 3-bet the turn, even with A King high flush for fear that I am holding the nuts.

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"Yes" to a free showdown after raising the turn if a blank river falls? There's got to be something I'm missing here.

There are certain few opponents who if the action on the flop played out exactly like this, they will hold a flush 100% [Yes, they exist]. Against these opponents the play is very easy. Call down and fold the river unimproved (well, I admit it's never easy to fold a set).

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He is capable of playing weak made hands or hand/draw combinations fairly strong.

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But based on this read, I don't think he's one of those certain opponents. And it sounds like you're uncertain about his range, as I would be with that quote above. To me taking a line like raising the turn and checking the river is inconsistent. Let's suppose your opponent never folds to a raise (reasonable). If you're raising the turn, you're saying you can crush his range and should be betting the river unimproved as well.

Now if you're unsure of his range and think you can beat some of his hands, but actually think the weight's very heavy towards a flopped flush, well then there's absolutely no reason to raise the turn even when you hit your set! Granted, that turned A improves your hand and makes you more excited and happy about your full house/nut flush prospects, but you are still behind a flush. Why exactly do you raise the turn? It's not like you're afraid of giving free cards. Let's see. On the turn against this opponent with this play, you are either (a) ahead and he has exactly 0 outs or maybe 1 out if he holds a set or (b) you are behind, but you have 17 outs.

If you raise the turn unnecessarily, all you do is open yourself to a turn 3-bet by a flush, and then you'll be cursing yourself when the river blanks and you fold because you cost yourself an extra bet and a showdown. Or you'll call because you can't fold a set and curse at yourself twice as much because you lost 2 more big bets than you should have.

Call the turn and call the river unimproved, and obviously raise the river if you improve. Keep it simple.

Garland

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

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$20-$40 near you:

Villian has just enough of a brain to get himself into trouble. He is capable of playing weak made hands or hand/draw combinations fairly strong. He is break-even at best. He views me as a TAG but likely thinks I am over agressive/trying to run him over at times, which is definitely true.

UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, I raise in MP with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Villan calls in BB, limpers call.

Flop: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Action: Checked to me, I bet, BB raises, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, I 3-bone, BB caps, UTG calls, I call.

Turn: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB bets, UTG folds, and I insta-raise

Holla?

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It is not a free show down raise because you don't plan to fold to a re-raise and you don't plan to fold to a river donk. A free showdown raise is made on the turn with a weak made hand that you intend to invest a maximum of two more bets in, thus you invest both of them on the turn rather than calling the turn and the river. This is not even a semi-bluff raise but simply a legitimate attempt to get more money in the pot on a hand you figure to be the best currently (value bet).

I like the turn raise. I like never folding this hand. I like calling a turn 3 bet. I like calling a river donk. I like betting the river if checked to.

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

This is a fantastic post and sort of the response I was hoping for. I was unsure of his range. I agree with all of your above comments except for maybe the conclusion. By rasing the turn and checking the river unimproved, I am putting in the same number of bets as I would if calling down, plus I win one more bet if I improve. Why not do this?

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

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This is a fantastic post and sort of the response I was hoping for. I was unsure of his range. I agree with all of your above comments except for maybe the conclusion. By rasing the turn and checking the river unimproved, I am putting in the same number of bets as I would if calling down, plus I win one more bet if I improve. Why not do this?

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I edited my post before you replied. The reason you don't raise turn is you will open yourself to a turn 3-bet, which will be an absolute disaster as mentioned in the edited post. I'm sorry, but I don't agree with your assessment that he will just call with even a K-high flush. Unless you're going against the most scared opponent in the world, which from your initial read it doesn't sound like, you are getting 3-bet by a flush.

Additional proof he'll 3-bet you with flush?

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He views me as a TAG but likely thinks I am over agressive/trying to run him over at times, which is definitely true.

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Sounds like the perfect opportunity for villain to stand up to a "bully" like yourself. With a made flush.

Garland

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

Ok. What if we were to assume he would never 3 bet the turn, even with a king high flush? Would a turn raise followed by river check be the best line then?

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

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Ok. What if we were to assume he would never 3 bet the turn, even with a king high flush? Would a turn raise followed by river check be the best line then?

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Originally, I was going to say the two lines would be exactly neutral. You get the same two bets in if you call/call versus raise turn/check river. And it would be neutral if the river blanked.

However, if you can assume 100% that villain will never 3-bet you on the turn, then your raise the turn line has an added advantage. Why? Basically because you will insure that you get 3 big bets when you improve. Once he calls the turn raise, he’s almost bound to call the river regardless of what falls.

But suppose you just call the turn, and then the river 4 flushes. Then he might check/call you, and you lose that extra bet. This is actually the specific case where raising the turn will help you.

Garland

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

This is exactly what I was thinking at the time. I was almost 100% positive that he wasn't going ot raise the turn because I held the trump. I think I tainted responses by saying that he felt as though I was running over him. He did feel this way, but nonetheless, I put in action at every opportunity and any average live player is loathe to put in a 3rd BB after a person has put in that much pre-flop and flop action against multiple opponents.

I think this hand is the exceptional case where the "free-showdown if unimproved" raise is the optimal play.

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

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I don't want to reveal the turn action. But at the time, I wasn't expecting a riase even from a king high flush.

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This is the key to why we need to raise the turn -- holding the As, it's impossible for our opponent to have the nuts, so it would take a pretty aggro player to 3-bet the turn with the K-high flush. Many of us would do it, but we're not most players. Most players will chill out after the flop is capped and the turn is raised.

So yeah, a smaller flush is not reraising us, but worse sets and 2 pairs will call us hoping to improve (despite drawing dead or to 1 out).

Raise the turn. As for what to do on the river after he calls, I'd just try to sniff out based on a read whether he called the turn in an attempt to call down with a flush, or if he knew he was dead but was praying to get lucky.

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

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I guess my real question is- do I bet a blank river-- that;s waht I meant. If I am not betting a blank river then it is a free showdown raise. If I am betting a blank river, then its a value raise. etc etc etc

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1) check behind on the river if you don't improve.

2) This is a 100% value raise. You don't have to fire again on the river for there to be value.

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OMG my line sucked. It came off the top of my head, i didnt put any thought into it.

If villain has a flush we are a 35% equity dog on average with 10 outs to improve to boat and 6 outs to improve to a flush (assuming villain doesn't have JsQs or 7s8s of course - that would be a tragedy)

So if the villain has a flush 65% of the time when the action goes bet, raise, 3-bet, call it will cost the hero 4 bets to see a showdown.

Assuming the villain bets the river the hero will gain on average 1 extra bet if he makes his hand. 35% the hero will earn 5BB

-2.6+ 1.75 = EV -.85BB

If however the hero calls the turn (assuming the third player folds) then the hero loses 2 bets 65% of the time, and earns an average of 2.5 BB 35% of the time.

.875-1.3= -.425BB

Of course there will be times when the villain has 2 pair, a smaller set, Ks, etc etc etc. if by calling we keep in the third player for one more bet the hero's EV changes to + .575BB!

If however the villain will not 3-bet with a baby flush then the hero loses 2 BB 65% of the time if he checks behind on the river, and gains 3BB 35% of the time when his hand is good (assuming the villain cannot fold of course).

1.05-1.3= EV -.25BB


Its now clear to me the correct play is call the turn, re-evaluate on the river due to the risk of a 3-bet and the advantage of keeping in the dead money. This line probably shows the greatest ROI when we are lucky enough to keep in the third player and the hero is 100% showdown bound.

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

haven't read the hand or the replies, I just saw you had a set of aces and the nut flush draw, this isn't a freeshowdown raise

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess my real question is- do I bet a blank river-- that;s waht I meant. If I am not betting a blank river then it is a free showdown raise. If I am betting a blank river, then its a value raise. etc etc etc

[/ QUOTE ]

1) check behind on the river if you don't improve.

2) This is a 100% value raise. You don't have to fire again on the river for there to be value.

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG my line sucked. It came off the top of my head, i didnt put any thought into it.

If villain has a flush we are a 35% equity dog on average with 10 outs to improve to boat and 6 outs to improve to a flush (assuming villain doesn't have JsQs or 7s8s of course - that would be a tragedy)

So if the villain has a flush 65% of the time when the action goes bet, raise, 3-bet, call it will cost the hero 4 bets to see a showdown.

Assuming the villain bets the river the hero will gain on average 1 extra bet if he makes his hand. 35% the hero will earn 5BB

-2.6+ 1.75 = EV -.85BB

If however the hero calls the turn (assuming the third player folds) then the hero loses 2 bets 65% of the time, and earns an average of 2.5 BB 35% of the time.

.875-1.3= -.425BB

Of course there will be times when the villain has 2 pair, a smaller set, Ks, etc etc etc. if by calling we keep in the third player for one more bet the hero's EV changes to + .575BB!

If however the villain will not 3-bet with a baby flush then the hero loses 2 BB 65% of the time if he checks behind on the river, and gains 3BB 35% of the time when his hand is good (assuming the villain cannot fold of course).

1.05-1.3= EV -.25BB


Its now clear to me the correct play is call the turn, re-evaluate on the river due to the risk of a 3-bet and the advantage of keeping in the dead money. This line probably shows the greatest ROI when we are lucky enough to keep in the third player and the hero is 100% showdown bound.

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Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you included in this ev calc the possibility that villain could have two pair or a set. Obviously if his whole range is {flushes} then the correct strategy is to peel the turn, fold the river UI.

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

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Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you included in this ev calc the possibility that villain could have two pair or a set. Obviously if his whole range is {flushes} then the correct strategy is to peel the turn, fold the river UI.

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I made mention of that in the post, its not easy to determine if the villain will hold 2 pair or a smaller set which is why I believe its best to call the river unimproved. I had to set the bar someonewhere, since the board is monotone thats the basis for the decision.

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

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Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you included in this ev calc the possibility that villain could have two pair or a set. Obviously if his whole range is {flushes} then the correct strategy is to peel the turn, fold the river UI.

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I made mention of that in the post, its not easy to determine if the villain will hold 2 pair or a smaller set which is why I believe its best to call the river unimproved. I had to set the bar someonewhere, since the board is monotone thats the basis for the decision.

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ok, but then why do the ev calc in the first place? Obviously if you are an equity dog vs. a range that never folds and always bets twice then you shouldn't raise the turn.

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

Also, the 3rd player did fold to Villian's turn donk, so he's out.

Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe
 

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why do i want to valuebet the river if he doesn't 3bet the turn?

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well this depends for me on what villian does w/ 99/TT preflop. if he always 3bets with them then he is far more likely to have a flush or KsT given the action than a set+two pair.

however, that being said, i've seen some very profitable opportunities appear when somebody who has been "bullied" decides to stand up without a top made hand at the wrong time (this being the wrong time).

Barron