river crai
 

I limp UTG+1 A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Button raises, BB calls, I call.

Flop

J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB leads, I call, Button raises, BB calls, I 3-bet, they both call.

Turn
8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB checks, I check, Button bets, BB calls, I call.

River

8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB checks, I....?

Who likes a check-raise here?

The nut low and the nut flush and all lesser full houses bet here, and button is a fairly aggressive player who would def. bet the nut low here, BB is a terrible calling station imo.

Re: river crai
 

I think I'd lead out. I'd be too afraid of missing a bet. Risk of it getting checked behind me (only one player to act) + possibility of a raise from my friend on the button + probability of at least getting calls from both players = leads me to lean toward betting.

Re: river crai
 

I like the idea, but lead out IMO. One of them might think that they are made when the board pairs and raise you anyway.

Re: river crai
 

Could you imagine if you checked this river and the button (the only person left in this hand to make the bet for you)checked behind you? Then you gain zip, zilch, nada for this lovely, lovely hand. And I've seen it, even from the aggressive types, and that would be utterly gross if that occured.

No, there's no question about it that you stand to gain so much more by betting (for one, you guarantee that $ goes into the pot) and you still may even get raised AND overcalled, especially with that board (that has a MYRAID of possibilities).

Consider who you're up against, too--- You've got one that was a calling station (who probably has a harder time knowing where he's at), and, you had the aggressive button. Not to mention, that, both players took the initiative in this hand at different streets, so it's very likely that the board hit all of you.

Re: river crai
 

Why don't you raise the turn with nut low and top set?

Re: river crai
 

Tex - I can see mixing up your play. From that standpoint, not directly betting the turn makes sense.

However, my default position would be to directly bet the turn. After limp/making it three bets on the 2nd betting round, I wouldn't trust Button to bet behind my check on the 3rd betting round. (Of course, you know your opponents better than I do). And if I did check on the 3rd betting round and Button bet behind me, I'd make it two bets.

On the other hand, I have to admit that the clever way you played it would have anyone trying to read you tearing out their hair!

Do I like a check-raise on the river? Absolutely!

Buzz

Re: river crai
 

Buzz:

So far, you seem to be the only one who really likes a river check-raise. I'm trying to find some really good reasons where I think the CR play would be the better of the two options, but I definitely feel it's the incorrect play to be perfectly honest. You would need to do some serious convincing to sway my decision, but so far I am not joining that camp.

Keep in mind that there is only ONE player left in this hand that can bet this hand for TX if he decides to go for a CR. And because of that, it significantly decreases our chances for our CR to be successful. If that happens, then we have lost out on some serious value. Do you really feel that the CR attempt is worth that?

I understand that the button was aggressive, but, if it fails, the amount that TX stands to lose if does decide to go for a CR is FAR greater than what he can gain by just betting his hand straight out. It's not as if we're going to lose bets by doing this---in fact, he stands to collect just as much (if not MORE) by leading.

Also, given the boards texture and the myraid of possible holdings...noone's going to fold if he bets anyway. And, it's going to be harder for them to know where they stand or what TX holds. We know the button is at least calling...and because the BB was such a calling station, we stand to gain his $ also, even if it did come back to him for 2 bets.

I know that the CR play seems like the clever play, but if I can gain more the other way, isn't that what matters most? Let me retract that a little bit because we can't know for certain which play would gain more, but we do know that the CR attempt has the downside of earning us nothing.

Re: river crai
 

[ QUOTE ]
you seem to be the only one who really likes a river check-raise. I'm trying to find some really good reasons where I think the CR play would be the better of the two options, but I definitely feel it's the incorrect play

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Rush - I think Tex has Button pegged as someone who will bet in late position if everybody else checks (and who possibly will fold if anybody else bets). It's not unusual to run across an opponent who plays pretty much that way. And if that's the playing style Tex is up against, and if BB is stuck calling Buttons inevitable bet, then Tex has a good play in letting Button bet, BB call, and then sticking it to them both.

Tex didn't do that on the turn, perhaps feeling that he'd get less on the river by making a move on the turn.

And now on the last betting round, it's time to pull the trigger.

That's how I read the play. Seemed expertly done to me.

Except possibly to mix up my play, I probably wouldn't do it myself (because I probably wouldn't have enough faith that Button would bet behind me), but I can appreciate someone else doing it.

Buzz