Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

I think the general thread messes me up, because I see these ludicrous hero call-downs with bottom pair, and I proceed to assume that people are messing with my cbets more than they are. But then like every time I try to look someone up or play back at them, they really have me beat. I guess I'm just bad at poker, because I have no clue where to pick spots to continue with less than TPGK+/big draws. I don't want to play fit or fold forever.

I'd really appreciate it if some people could post hands where their cbet was raised but for whatever reason, they floated or 3-bet or played on in some manner. How did you "know" villain was BSing, etc? I used to think the board could tell you -- like a raise on a K73 board must be a lie, but when I look them up (with TT or whatever), they have K5o.

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

Is there a way to filter these hands in PT?

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

I don't think so; not exactly anyway. You can mess around with the filter for "Pre-flop Raise - Action on Flop", and "Went to Showdown"/"Won without Showdown".

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

Party Poker, $2/$4 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 3 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

SB: $778.70
Hero (BB): $406
BTN: $979.90

Pre-Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
BTN folds, <font color="red">SB raises to $12</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $44</font>, SB calls $32

Flop: ($88) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $55</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $110</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $362 and is All-In</font>, SB calls $252

Turn: ($812) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($812) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $812 Pot ($1 Rake)
SB showed K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (two pairs, Kings and Queens) and LOST (-$406 NET)
Hero showed 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (a straight Ace to Five) and WON $811 (+$405 NET)

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

i'm pretty sure no one's posting the hands where they play back/make a hero calldown and look like an idiot...

uh like i believe seabeast is getting at in the post above

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

Party Poker, $3/$6 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BB: $866
Hero (UTG): $663
MP: $600
CO: $549.75
BTN: $1,198.75
SB: $658

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $22</font>, MP calls $22, 4 folds

Flop: ($53) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $42</font>, <font color="red">MP raises to $105</font>, Hero calls $63

Turn: ($263) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">MP bets $175</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $536 and is All-In</font>, MP folds

Results: $613 Pot
Hero showed K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (two pairs, Tens and Eights) and WON $971 (+$669 NET)

Ok here is a serious one. This guy was playing out of control aggressive and was obviously bluffing so much more often than he would have the 3 hands or whatever that can call pre and then raise this flop for value. So i decided to call and then CRAI most turns because that gets more out of him than threebetting flop, and it also means you are the one who shuts the door - he can't rebluff you. I don't show bluffs often but we were battling.

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

just stick with abc guy

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

ddubois:

Unfortunately, I think this belongs a great deal to 'instinct' and not anything you can learn - it's about a number of factors that include metagame, timing tells, bet sizing tells, etc. that cannot be adequately described on the forum.

and also this place doesn't help, because people don't post the hands where they get owned - trust me, they do.

furthermore, it sounds like you're falling into the old trap described by matt flynn where people inexplicably bluff or call down despite there being no real impetus to do so.

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

[ QUOTE ]
because I have no clue where to pick spots to continue with less than TPGK+/big draws. I don't want to play fit or fold forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I understand what you are getting at I still think that people have the goods most of the time and generaly don't make big plays. It's dangerous to go around being paranoid about getting outplayed which I think alot of us do at times. It can seriosly cloud your judgment.
What I suggest is spending more time on table selection. There are almost always tables open where you don't have to worry about this.

Do you really wanna play super agressive "wreckless" poker? I don't think you should be looking for spots to get it in on the flop with less then what you are used to.

Anyways, too bad about the filter in PT. It would be really helpfull to have filters like that to look at.

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

ok i was just reminded of a hand i played a little while ago:

Party Poker, $3/$6 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

SB: $565
BB: $105
UTG: $413.05
Hero (CO): $597
BTN: $1,232.98

Pre-Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
UTG calls $6, <font color="red">Hero raises to $30</font>, BTN folds, SB calls $27, 2 folds

Flop: ($72) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $50</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $144</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $567 and is All-In</font>, SB folds

Results: $360 Pot

earlier this orbit he flat called my utg open on the btn with A2 and called 2 barrels on a J427 board, i gave up on a river blank and he was good. so this flop shove seemed easy enough as he's clearly not about to give me credit for a hand after i cbet here, probably feels like he owns me a bit right now, and i don't expect him to really ever have a strong hand.

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

It seems that the lesson so far is: If people are playing back with crap, react in a situation where it is unlikely for the opponent to be able to continue. If people are being sensible, step down.

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

and just so you know, i think that's the only time i played back after my cbet was raised all day. guess what, i still won multiple buyins.

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

Full Tilt Poker, $2/$4 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: $379.30
MP: $414.40
Hero (CO): $424.60
BTN: $360
SB: $824.95
BB: $459.10

Pre-Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $14</font>, BTN calls $14, 2 folds

Flop: ($34) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $22</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $66</font>, Hero calls $44

Turn: ($166) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

River: ($166) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $100</font>, BTN folds

Results: $166 Pot ($3 Rake)
Hero mucked T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and WON $163 (+$83 NET)

villain is 35/25, kind of erratic, just three bet a utg raiser with 93o and showed when he folded.

earlier in the session he three bet me i called and c/f'ed the flop after timing down a little bit.

i've been playing pretty tight and haven't been shown bluffing.

when he raises the flop it feels like a wtf i'm gonna raise the flop cause you're oop and you've got to fold if you have overcards which you're gonna have a lot.

i'm pretty sure he's thinking this so i just call the raise and rep a hand like TT+, remember my image is good, plus i don't think he has much and believe he is a thinking player, just with laggy stats.

he checks the turn which is green light to fire a lot of rivers imo.

i can rep an overpair, maybe even a flush, and he folds.

A couple things made this line work imo.

1. I'm aware of my image as solid so far, plus we have history of me laying down to him before so we have some type of rapport, if that's the right word. with some people that rapport doesn't mean [censored] and they'll keep firing with bluffs or top pair on the board in this hand regardless of my call, but in this instance i felt that his turn bet meant he was giving me some type of credit.

2. the flush came in and he didn't bet the turn. i have more hands i can rep here. i didn't bet the turn but i could've whiffed a c/r, maybe ill donk the turn with a flush, maybe ill go for a c/r, he knows he has a crazy kind of aggressive image so he may think i think he's gonna follow up with a turn bet...

3. i put in a decent size river bet and not a lot of people at 2/4 would take this line with air so in combo with my image my line looks fairly strong.

pretty borderline play imo but with my read of him along with my image and how the hand played out with him checking behind fairly quickly on the turn, my line seemed to fit nicely.

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

A good tell with some weaker players are what they do when they actually have top pair.. seems simple enough but helps a ton. For instance, at least in HU play, a lot of players have a tendency to just call with top pair in 3-bet pots, that's sort of what they do. So when they all of a sudden make a small raise they really have all or nothing and it's usually nothing.

Villain in this hand insta-raised, I've been c-betting 3-bet pots most of the time.. We had a big hand prior where he just called with KQ on a 710K two club flop so I was pretty sure that on this board he had nothing.

Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 2 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

Hero (BB): $233
SB: $312.50

Pre-Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
<font color="red">SB raises to $6</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $20</font>, SB calls $14

Flop: ($40) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $30</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $85</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $213 and is All-In</font>, SB folds

Results: $210 Pot ($0.50 Rake)
Hero mucked T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and WON $209.50 (+$104.50 NET)

Of course with better players it gets harder, but for the most part if you have a general feel of someone's tendencies, your play is at least justified in some way instead of just looking at PT AF stats and randomly deciding to make a stand. Also of course I'd like to be in situations where when I do get called, I have a little equity.

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Full Tilt Poker, $2/$4 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: $379.30
MP: $414.40
Hero (CO): $424.60
BTN: $360
SB: $824.95
BB: $459.10

Pre-Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $14</font>, BTN calls $14, 2 folds

Flop: ($34) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $22</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $66</font>, Hero calls $44

Turn: ($166) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

River: ($166) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $100</font>, BTN folds

Results: $166 Pot ($3 Rake)
Hero mucked T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and WON $163 (+$83 NET)


[/ QUOTE ]

You got a great turn to allow a bluff but floating this flop OOP is pretty damn terrible, I don't care if this guy is bluff-raising every flop. I'd much rather push than call but they both suck compared to just folding.

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Full Tilt Poker, $2/$4 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: $379.30
MP: $414.40
Hero (CO): $424.60
BTN: $360
SB: $824.95
BB: $459.10

Pre-Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $14</font>, BTN calls $14, 2 folds

Flop: ($34) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $22</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $66</font>, Hero calls $44

Turn: ($166) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

River: ($166) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $100</font>, BTN folds

Results: $166 Pot ($3 Rake)
Hero mucked T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and WON $163 (+$83 NET)

villain is 35/25, kind of erratic, just three bet a utg raiser with 93o and showed when he folded.

earlier in the session he three bet me i called and c/f'ed the flop after timing down a little bit.

i've been playing pretty tight and haven't been shown bluffing.

when he raises the flop it feels like a wtf i'm gonna raise the flop cause you're oop and you've got to fold if you have overcards which you're gonna have a lot.

i'm pretty sure he's thinking this so i just call the raise and rep a hand like TT+, remember my image is good, plus i don't think he has much and believe he is a thinking player, just with laggy stats.

he checks the turn which is green light to fire a lot of rivers imo.

i can rep an overpair, maybe even a flush, and he folds.

A couple things made this line work imo.

1. I'm aware of my image as solid so far, plus we have history of me laying down to him before so we have some type of rapport, if that's the right word. with some people that rapport doesn't mean [censored] and they'll keep firing with bluffs or top pair on the board in this hand regardless of my call, but in this instance i felt that his turn bet meant he was giving me some type of credit.

2. the flush came in and he didn't bet the turn. i have more hands i can rep here. i didn't bet the turn but i could've whiffed a c/r, maybe ill donk the turn with a flush, maybe ill go for a c/r, he knows he has a crazy kind of aggressive image so he may think i think he's gonna follow up with a turn bet...

3. i put in a decent size river bet and not a lot of people at 2/4 would take this line with air so in combo with my image my line looks fairly strong.

pretty borderline play imo but with my read of him along with my image and how the hand played out with him checking behind fairly quickly on the turn, my line seemed to fit nicely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. TBH, this looks so crazy that I can't imagine you're missing much value/profit by never doing it.

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

so where are your guys' examples mmmmm?

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

dagreez,

did you expect him to fire turn..and were you planning on c/r'ing it?

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

its jsut a retardedly played hand and he probably has a big bunch of similar hands were he spewed off a buyin. he would never post those tho would he. that hand is completely TERRIBLE

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

Wow, you 6-max guys are sick. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

i have tons of examples, but you should be focusing more on your overall gameplan than individual hands. it doesnt really matter if you made a cool 3bet bluff and it worked one time. at 5/10+ people raise cbets all the time so dealing with them is just a fact of life.

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

[ QUOTE ]
its jsut a retardedly played hand and he probably has a big bunch of similar hands were he spewed off a buyin. he would never post those tho would he. that hand is completely TERRIBLE

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks for your thoughts but i basically disagree with everything you just said here.

1. i've floated oop like this maybe three times in my last 80k hands, with a read duh.

2. i'll admit ive spewed before, and spewed hard :sob:. how else do you know who you can triple barrel until you try it a few times, duh.

3. this hand isn't terrible. it's an exploitable line. how exploitable? it depends on how much villain is going to exploit it. if villain isn't going to exploit it by checking the turn, and is giving my flop call some respekt, which was my read, then i can exploit his b.s. flop raise. if he wants to exploit me back by shoving the river fine. he's adding another level to our history and the game evolves. I'm not scared of that, are you?

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i have tons of examples, but you should be focusing more on your overall gameplan than individual hands. it doesnt really matter if you made a cool 3bet bluff and it worked one time. at 5/10+ people raise cbets all the time so dealing with them is just a fact of life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jfish, I know alot of this is situation dep., but can you give some general guidelines or at least the thought process you use when your c-bet gets raised in order to determine how to proceed?

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

well i personally have a style that involves lots of flop 3bets so i tend to have a pretty wide value range as well as an appropriately wide bluff range.

if you dont value 3bet much, then you obv cant bluff much. people really really really underestimate balance in this game.

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

yeah it's not like there is a quota you need to fill of this stuff. you shouldn't be looking to force it. like jfish said when you are playing against good aggressive players being able to hold your own is just something you need to learn how to do, but it needs to come naturally, and is just based on hand reading like anything else. if it's really obvious that a guy is likely to be bluffing you most of the time in a spot, respond accordingly. if it's not really obvious, you can fold and move on. if you find it hard to tell how likely villain is to be bluffing then you need to work on your handreading.

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

At 400NL, I almost never find any one bluff raising c-bets on complete air. Some regulars do it with draws and like some one said, you have to understand their tendencies to figure out what to do. Folding, Calling or Shoving 100% of the time is obviously wrong. Most donks will just call with their top pair or worse pairs instead of raising.

600NL and above, c-bets are raised a lot, so it requires a different strategy. I tend to call and play the turn appropriately depending on the board. As jfish said, 3-betting is a good idea too with good enough frequency both for value and as bluffs.

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

[ QUOTE ]
well i personally have a style that involves lots of flop 3bets so i tend to have a pretty wide value range as well as an appropriately wide bluff range.

if you dont value 3bet much, then you obv cant bluff much. people really really really underestimate balance in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree, people really overestimate it in a lot of spots

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

Funny that I was reading this thread when this hand happenned.

Poker Stars, $5/$10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 4 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: $939
Hero (BTN): $1,468
SB: $380
BB: $1,000

Pre-Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $30</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $95</font>, 2 folds, UTG calls $65

Flop: ($205) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $145</font>, <font color="red">UTG raises to $300</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1,373 and is All-In</font>, UTG folds

Results: $805 Pot ($2 Rake)
Hero mucked 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and WON $803 (+$408 NET)

Small check/raise seemed a little fishy and the guy is a lagtard so I have some outs.

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Funny that I was reading this thread when this hand happenned.

Poker Stars, $5/$10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 4 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: $939
Hero (BTN): $1,468
SB: $380
BB: $1,000

Pre-Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $30</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $95</font>, 2 folds, UTG calls $65

Flop: ($205) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $145</font>, <font color="red">UTG raises to $300</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1,373 and is All-In</font>, UTG folds

Results: $805 Pot ($2 Rake)
Hero mucked 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and WON $803 (+$408 NET)

Small check/raise seemed a little fishy and the guy is a lagtard so I have some outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably one of the easiest flops to bluff 3-bet especially after PF 3-bet. There are no obvious draws and villian is thinking either you have a big over-pair or set.

This is quite different from c-betting OOP and that requires more expertise. Imagine raising with 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] UTG+1, called by button. When you bet the 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] flop, you get raised, what do you do?

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

^^^Trick question?

Fold obv. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

TEACH ME HOW TO WIN ?

comon ddub, this is way too broad of a Q and u know it

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
well i personally have a style that involves lots of flop 3bets so i tend to have a pretty wide value range as well as an appropriately wide bluff range.

if you dont value 3bet much, then you obv cant bluff much. people really really really underestimate balance in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree, people really overestimate it in a lot of spots

[/ QUOTE ]

ya a lot of people feel the way you do, just difference in basic outlook i think.

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

only balance vs ppl that notice such things, poker 101

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

[ QUOTE ]
TEACH ME HOW TO WIN ?

comon ddub, this is way too broad of a Q and u know it

[/ QUOTE ]
[censored] off. Clearly a crap thread. That's why there's 30+ replies.

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
TEACH ME HOW TO WIN ?

comon ddub, this is way too broad of a Q and u know it

[/ QUOTE ]
[censored] off. Clearly a crap thread. That's why there's 30+ replies.

[/ QUOTE ]

30 posts that all say: It Depends

very informative

Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
well i personally have a style that involves lots of flop 3bets so i tend to have a pretty wide value range as well as an appropriately wide bluff range.

if you dont value 3bet much, then you obv cant bluff much. people really really really underestimate balance in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree, people really overestimate it in a lot of spots

[/ QUOTE ]

ya a lot of people feel the way you do, just difference in basic outlook i think.

[/ QUOTE ]

difference between a 6max and HU player I think

you just don't see the same spots that often between you and another TAG at a 6 handed game