Intentional miscalling of hand at showdown
 

Question: At Red Rock there is one female limit player regular who consistantly miscalls her hand at showdown. I have played with her many times, and she does many other angle-shooting things like intentionally checking out of turn, etc so I know for 100% fact it is not just her "trying to be cute". Example: I saw her once intentionally not post her BB even after prompting- push her cards over the line "mucking", then after the dealer told her again it was her BB she "reluctantly" posted and of course had pocket AA. I bring this up only to assert that I think all of this is intentional.

So anyway, she will constantly triumphantly throw her hand down at showdown immediately and announce "flush" or "straight" when she has a busted draw.
So lets assume a board of 9d 10d Qs 6s 8h - she calls down out of SB headsup and river goes check-check - and she truimphantly throws down her 2d3d and says "flush".

Situation 1: opponent turbo mucks and cards are not retrievable
Situation 2: opponent turbo mucks but cards are easily retrievable - but say touching muck slightly
Situation 3: opponent puts cards face down just over the line
Situation 4: opponent beats her to death with his chair but accidentally drops card on floor while doing so
What would floor do in above situations?

Also,
What is the dealers role when she does this? I've never seen any dealer give a warning to her for this. Let's say opponent turbomucks and no one is objecting to her behavior.

[Note I am was not involved in any of the above situations - I know what she is doing and so it not an issue for me personally, but of course it annoys me that someone is blatently angle-shooting.]

Re: Intentional miscalling of hand at showdown
 

she automatically loses the pot to whoever was left at showdown. Miscalling your hands intentionally should require a player to be banned. It is understood that occasionally players miscall their hands, but players are not required to call their hands in the first place so continued miscalling needs to be given tough remedies.

Re: Intentional miscalling of hand at showdown
 

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she automatically loses the pot to whoever was left at showdown.

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I don't want to sway the discussion, but this was my impression as well. However, when I brought this up to the floor away from the table as I was leaving (I didn't identify the player) as a "hypothetical", he told me it was the player's responsibility to protect their hand so the angle-shooter gets the pot in cases 1 and 2, and that in case 3 where the cards are just a few inches in front of him - the dealer should state what the hand actually is and give a chance for the player to flip his cards back over.

I didn't ask about situation 4.

Re: Intentional miscalling of hand at showdown
 

I had an old regular do this to my friend when I was drunking it up at 2/4 Canterbury. He called something like flush when my buddy had top pair and tabled his hand.

I told my buddy there was no flush out there. He tabled his hand and scooped. The old regular told me to let my friend play his own hand, I told him something of the effect of, "don't [censored] angle shoot douchebag." I got a stern talking to by the floor, and he ignored the old guy's angle.

It was pretty funny.

Re: Intentional miscalling of hand at showdown
 

If it doesn't bother you to take her down a bit just say at the table at showdown she's done this in the past. Surely if she gets called out on it the whole table will be more careful in future if they play again with her.

I know you aren't the poker police but it clearly bothers you?

Re: Intentional miscalling of hand at showdown
 

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However, when I brought this up to the floor away from the table as I was leaving (I didn't identify the player) as a "hypothetical", he told me it was the player's responsibility to protect their hand so the angle-shooter gets the pot in cases 1 and 2

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I just can't adjust to this simple fact of life: 99% of the floormen in this world don't know the rules.

I should expect floormen to blow this one (like the floorman mentioned above). I shouldn't lose my patience when it happens.

But it drives me so nuts that I'm seriously considering another profession.

It gets worse when I explain to people, "If a player intentionally miscalls his hand, causing opponent to muck, opponent gets the pot," and NOBODY BELIEVES ME. They think I made it up.

They go ask a floorman, and the floorman never heard of such a thing, so either he's wrong or I'm wrong. Well, he's wearing a tie, and I'm not, so his vote counts for more than mine, even though he's never read a written set of rules in his life.

Wow, I'm getting angry just typing this. Does anybody know of a good-paying job for a lazy, non-college-graduate who sucks at selling things and refuses to wear a suit? Yeah, I didn't think so. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: Intentional miscalling of hand at showdown
 

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I know you aren't the poker police but it clearly bothers you?

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It would bother me to be at the table with a angleshooting cheater. Why wouldn't it bother you?

Re: Intentional miscalling of hand at showdown
 

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I had an old regular do this to my friend when I was drunking it up at 2/4 Canterbury. He called something like flush when my buddy had top pair and tabled his hand.

I told my buddy there was no flush out there. He tabled his hand and scooped. The old regular told me to let my friend play his own hand, I told him something of the effect of, "don't [censored] angle shoot douchebag." I got a stern talking to by the floor, and he ignored the old guy's angle.

It was pretty funny.

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If both players had already tabled their hands (it wasn't clear from your description above), then cards speak. Consequently, I would be extremely concerned about a floorperson who either doesn't realize this, or does know this but is actively attempting to protect the interests of an angleshooting regular.

If your buddy had not yet tabled his hand, you shouldn't have said "There is no flush out there," or made any comments about if he should call or fold. However, I assume you have the right to call out any tabled hand--meaning you could have said "He has a pair of jacks."

Re: Intentional miscalling of hand at showdown
 

I'm sure other players hate me for this, but if I were at the table, I'd say, "There's no flush possible," even if I wasn't in the hand. I do this because I play 1/2NL, and most of those players don't know what's going on. I hate to see people taken advantage of, and I do something about it whenever I can. If I were playing at a level where I thought people should be able to take care of themselves, I wouldn't say a word. However, people who are just learning deserve a little help and deserve not to have people trying to cheat them.

I'd do everything I could to let the table, dealer, and floor know what this woman was up to. It's pathetic.

Re: Intentional miscalling of hand at showdown
 

As bad as it sounds, verbal descriptions of the hand mean nothing. This is really the key to getting over the problem.

If the National Enquirer keeps publishing crap, who's to blame - them or the people who keep buying it?

If everyone understood that speaking your hand is meaningless, this problem would go away quietly by itself. It would hold no more authority than that player "lying" by bluffing her hand on the river. You don't take that as gospel, and neither should you take what she says when she shows her cards. It has no meaning in the game whatsoever.

It's the dealer's job to describe the winning hand. If the dealer is not doing his job, then it's the player's job to figure out what she has. What she's doing is creepy, but all the players should know the rules when they sit down at a poker table. And the rules say that cards speak, not players.