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-   -   How not to get value (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=488676)

Poker monkey 08-28-2007 10:50 PM

How not to get value
 
Two hands. I have some feelings on what I did wrong but I thought they were worth sharing, mainly because I'm annoyed at myself.

They're both against the same guy. He seems like a good player; my stats on him are 33/21/2.5 but this is all the way from 9-handed to heads-up, so overall he's quite tight. He probably sees me as quite aggressive since I bluff-shoved a river earlier (and got looked up by quads [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]) and I've got the best of him in our recent clashes (bluff-pot-raising a flushing river with the naked ace, and having him tank and fold).

1)
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $1/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $310.75
UTG+1: $98.00
CO: $54.00
Button: $327.85
SB: $51.05
BB: $75.35

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero calls, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB checks, BB checks.

Should probably raise, but I just limp in from under the gun. Big mistake?

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($5, 5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $4.5</font>, CO folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $15</font>, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $50</font>, Button folds.
Uncalled bets: $35 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: $35

How do you play the nut flush OOP 300 BB deep? I think I should just call on the flop because he can't have the 2nd or even 3rd nuts here. What's my plan for a non board-pairing turn?

2)
3 hands later...
I'm giving him credit for a big pair here, possibly Aces. What do you think of my betting? Should I pot the turn? How do maximize value on the river?

Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $1/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $318.25
UTG+1: $45.00
CO: $50.05
Hero: $326.00
SB: $174.35
BB: $48.00

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $4</font>, 2 folds, Hero calls, 2 folds.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($10, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">UTG bets $10</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $30</font>, UTG calls.

Turn: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($70, 2 players)
UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $20</font>, UTG calls.

River: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($110, 2 players)
UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $110</font>, UTG folds.
Uncalled bets: $110 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: $110

Slap My Jack 08-28-2007 11:38 PM

Re: How not to get value
 
Hand 1:

You have the king and jack, so I don't hate a call to extract more.

Hand 2:

A little less FPS with the betsizing here.

Weak bet on turn plus potting the river screams "oh damn I failed to induce action and want value now" or that you overplayed JJxx and caught on the river.

It's not like he has to checkraise on this turn to protect his hand, and he's playing his hand as a bluff catcher now unless he flat called TTxx which should be willing to put more money in later with little problem.

Aisthesis 08-28-2007 11:56 PM

Re: How not to get value
 
Hand 1: Well, that's definitely one way to play it. I also think you can flat call and CR (or even check-call) a non-pairing turn.

Hand 2: I also don't have any problems with this in light of the history. I'd probably bet less as a general rule--maybe $35-55, somewhere in there, whatever you think he calls. I think you can also check the turn here and hope it entices him into a big river bet.

iggymcfly 08-28-2007 11:58 PM

Re: How not to get value
 
These are both bad. In the first hand, you know he doesn't have the nut, 2nd nut, or even 3rd nut flush, so he can't possibly have a hand he's calling a reraise with. However, there's a very good chance that he's making a move on you here and if you just call, you can rep a set, and he might continue to fire.

In hand 2, I don't like the flop raise at all as you're ahead of pretty much nothing that calls. I guess if you really think he'll call with AAxx, go for it, but if he's as good as you describe, he won't. By his flop call, I'm guessing he had TT and you hit a one-outer. If he does have TT or AA here and bet/called the flop, he's probably going to call down as long as you don't do anything suspicious that reps a huge hand. So don't make the stupid small bet and pot the river. I think either betting half pot on the turn and then betting just over half pot on the river or betting just less than half pot on the turn and betting half pot on river is correct depending on how tight he is.


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