The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

I heard about this specific clip on a film review show:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOIYsGVyg8M

WTF?


The reviewer, Mark Kermode, was talking about how the movie shows 10 year old kids packed off to Jesus Camp and whipped into religious hysteria by this dangerous woman.

Here's more:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqNLMuijRyU

Do you Americans worry much about the fundamentalist right? It is something of a concern here in Europe - and we mostly attribute its continuing growth as we perceive it with G.W.Bush - but given the shocking state of newspapers these days, it's almost impossible to fathom what's a genuine piece of cultural news, and what's hyped up for our European tastes.


Sometimes this sort of thing makes you think America is now in serious decline as a credible world power, and maybe China or even Russia is going to be overtaking it as the single dominant world power.

Thoughts?

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

I worry about it, as my post earlier this year about "Letter to a Christian Nation" can attest to.

I'm stunned how stupid most of America is, and how they are so willing to trash the civil rights of other Americans whose politics and morals do not agree with their own.

I'm very happy to see the success of political humorists like Bill Maher and John Stewart - at least there's someone fighting for true American ideals.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

Yes we worry, but their power is currently ebbing.

America is in fact in serious decline as a credible world power, but it has a long way to fall. And at least we don't get ourselves in a tizzy because a couple of CDs got lost in the post. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

I'm not quite as worried, but I mostly agree with Elliot.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

idk if i would consider it to be "on the rise." there are plenty of people who are not members of the fundamentalist right, but would side with them b/c of shared religious beliefs if you drew a line in the sand. many of these people do not harbor the extremism of fundamentalists, but in the end their religion trumps all.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

The Christian Coalition is a major donator to the Republican Party. So much for separation of Church and State.

If the papers are making it sound like we are under the iron fist of The Christians, I will say it is an exaggeration. Broadcast television looks like cable 15 years ago. The country is becoming more liberal over the years, and there is little that can be done to oppress the mindset.

No doubt that Christian Organizations are putting out scare commercials, but they are often looked at sideways. There was a public service announcement talking about how girls should abstain from sex because they were more likely to commit suicide.

I think that the Fundamentalists, in the view of most Americans, are not respected. They created the Creationism Museum, which is frowned upon and picked on.

They tried to get prayer in school, but the atheists won in California by declaring the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional for the line "One nation, under God."

The only thing that they can do is use shock statistics to try to move people. They managed to gain more funding for "sex education" which is really abstinence education.

The over all case for America turning to some sort of Taliban is flimsy at best. No matter if there are or are not laws, the laws must reflect the general opinion.

The biggest concern for me is the so-called War on Drugs. I don't blame Religion solely for this, but I am sure it is no small contributor to the fear tactics used to support it, although I believe most Americans are against it.

As for poker: There are people who approve and those that don't Casinos and Card Rooms are popping up at record speeds all across America. Gambling is not as frowned upon as it was even 20 years ago. It is starting to be viewed as an outlet, healthy as long as people have control.

A friend recently moved to New York and asked me, "Do American's do nothing but work?" She was complaining because she had to work a 50 hour week, "only" got 2 weeks of vacation and sick time. I don't believe that the Americans will fall under another country for a while. We have ingenuity, a well-educated work force and a maleable language. It will take China decades before it can be seen as a world power. Simply put, China and Russia are too poor, the people are to oppressed, and the money and resources are not used properly to change their countries enough to become a world leader.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

This has been going on for some time, but it was documented better in Alexandra Pelosi's "Friends of God" film. That was scary, it shows the evangelicals telling their children that dinosaurs lived 3000 years ago, that evolution is a lie, etc.

I was raised Catholic, my wife was raised Baptist, and our kids go to Catholic schools. That being said, my kids have a very healthy grasp on what their religion means to them, because we have told them from the beginning to just be a good person because it's the right and human thing to do, not because your soul will be hurled into a fiery void of you don't. The kids in these videos seem to suffer from close-minded parenting. That's the scary part.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

If anything it is underhyped. It's fighting hard every day across the nation to work its way into our school systems. It has already succeeded in making prayers at the beginning of governmental meetings common, if not standard. It is difficult for a candidate to run for office without addressing and even endorsing religion, and religion is a very potent weapon in for those who would call attention to it.

The reason we don't pose it as more of a worry here is because we don't retain a historical memory of our own missteps into red-baiting, commie-hunting, blacklisting, union-busting, and spying on citizens. The American memory is selective, short, and self-flattering, and when it comes to questions of the world, our answer might as well be a simple, "We won." And by that we mean everything. And so, all other matters settled, our focus shifts inwards.

As far as our credibility goes, our might has usually functioned as an adequate substitute and remains one. Credibility is of limited use without power, and power needs it only sparingly. China and Russia may well increase their power dramatically in the coming century, but if they with their very flawed and corrupt systems do so, it will likely have as little to do with credibility as American influence does today. It will be the result of the success of their economic systems first and foremost. In this, America will still prove a potent competitor. But The American Century has come to a close. We are not the uniquely industrialized, unruined country we were after World War II. The power of the dollar is immense but no longer near absolute, and there are other markets and centers of innovation. America's insistence that there are no problems with its class structure because America has no social classes may also become more problematic as Eastern nations and a united Europe gain greater economic and political might, some of which will undoubtedly come at American expense. This, as uncertain times do, may in turn increase America's love affair with religion and hardline politics.

For all their problems, we may find it is Europe and the major nations of the Asian Pacific Rim that come to outpace America in maintaining and even increasing both the civil rights and the general welfare of the broad mass of their citizenry.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes we worry, but their power is currently ebbing.

America is in fact in serious decline as a credible world power, but it has a long way to fall. And at least we don't get ourselves in a tizzy because a couple of CDs got lost in the post. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

We've had the same thing going on with the credit records before, and multiple times with national security information.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
idk if i would consider it to be "on the rise." there are plenty of people who are not members of the fundamentalist right, but would side with them b/c of shared religious beliefs if you drew a line in the sand. many of these people do not harbor the extremism of fundamentalists, but in the end their religion trumps all.

[/ QUOTE ]

And they are often one-issue voters who will vote the same way, so are far as elections are concerned, it comes to the same thing.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

daveT, I think you are very wrong about the power of Fundamentalists, and the power of religion in our society. They have been courted assiduously and enormously successfully, and religion is a major factor in our politics.

The fact that you can even still see a commercial saying sex leads to suicide doesn't point out how ridiculous that notion is -- ideas like that have been around forever and promoted forever -- but how powerful it must be in the community that despite being so idiotic it can still find enough money to get on the air.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

as a recovering fundmentalist, I am very concerned about their influence on the military and paramilitary organizations within America - they seem to be ready to take up arms at a moment's notice - kinda disturbing.

RB

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
as a recovering fundmentalist, I am very concerned about their influence on the military and paramilitary organizations within America - they seem to be ready to take up arms at a moment's notice - kinda disturbing.

RB

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Seriously? where do you see this kind of stuff? I don't see any fundamentalists organizing where I live. Where are these paramilitary organizations?

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

blarg,

Prayers at the beginning of public meetings go back 230 years or so. I have not heard anyone consider the Founding Fathers as the Fundamentalist Right.

DaveT,

I find it curious that when church members get involved in politics that people decry it as a violation of the Separation of Church and State. Separation of Church and State is simply that the government cannot establish a national religion, not that religion cannot be active in politics.

Also, 'Under God' was put in the Pledge during the Eisenhower Administration as an affront to Communism. The founders acknowledged a Creator so I don't have a problem with God being mentioned as long as the government doesn't mandate church attendance or belief in said God.

diebitter,

The Religious Right rose to power in the 1980's during the Regan era. Its tent was much broader back then (Anti-Communist, Anti-tax, Anti-Big Spending Government, Anti-Abortion all rallied together). Today, only the anti-abortionists are the only group that hasn't at least partially left the tent. The RR clearly still has influence and power, but it's power has clearly declined over the past 15 years. Whether it can regroup and remobilize is uncertain. My opinion is that the RR has had their day in the sun, but will not go gently into that good night.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
idk if i would consider it to be "on the rise." there are plenty of people who are not members of the fundamentalist right, but would side with them b/c of shared religious beliefs if you drew a line in the sand. many of these people do not harbor the extremism of fundamentalists, but in the end their religion trumps all.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's another side to that coin here, Tarheel. I consider myself a devout Christian, but in many regards, I consider the fundamentalist right "Christians" in name only. If you look at much of their politics, much of it is 100% contrary to the actual words of Christ. "Fundamental" tenets such as "love they neighbor," and "love your enemies," have been lost on many people who call themselves fundamentalists. In many, many regards, the fundamentalist right acts like the Biblical Pharisees that Jesus railed on time after time for focusing on their own self-righteousness instead of loving thy neighbor, even if that neighbor sticks his dick in the wrong hole or plays poker or worships differently or even worships another god. Hell, I think even atheists have a better grasp of the story of the Good Samaritan and its implications than the average fundamentalist. The calls to arms of the fundamentalist right are so befuddling that I have to wonder if they've ever actually read the Bible they claim to tout. Why is it that the pinko hippies the fundamentalists would label as heathens are the pacifists and the fundamentalists are the ones leading the battle charge? Why do they completely ignore Jesus' words to "give to Caesar what is Caesar's and give to God what is God's?" Separation of church and state is actually prescribed by Jesus himself, but too many Christians miss or forget this.

One thing to bear in mind is that if every you hear about a Christian drawing a line in the sand, you can be pretty sure he's not acting in a Christ-like manner. When did Jesus ever draw a line in the sand or send away someone who came to him, even if that person was a theif, a prostitute, a heretic (Samaritan), a leper, or any other manner of sinner? Jesus does say that he will bring division into friendships, communities, and even families, but that's him saying that the forces of the world will exile Christians, not that the Christians should be drawing lines in the sand and casting out people who aren't pure enough.

This topic always gets me riled up. I'm always half-tempted to go through every single Bible passage that some politically-minded fundamentalist has construed to have some political implications and then just tear their words to shreds by going through the rest of the book that they call holy and showing how severely they've missed the point.

I'll close with the one idea I hope everyone who reads this takes to heart: the abuses of the fundamentalist right are not a fault of Christianity or of Biblical teachings. Not all Christians think like them, and it would not be the conclusion of any reasonable person who read the Bible, the whole Bible, in context, that the teachings therein would naturally lead to the creation of a group with the political goal of forcing, sometimes violently, their brand of righteousness on a morally wayward world. No. The abuses of the fundamentalist right come from people misunderstanding or misusing the words of the Bible in a manner completely contrary to its most central commandments for their own political or economic gain. Does the context of Christianity make it easier for people with their own gain in mind to abuse the system? There are reasonable arguments for yes, but I would argue that there are countless examples throughout history of people (ab)using secular "us versus them" propaganda that takes advantage of weak-minded people in much the same way that the fundamentalist right does. There will always be demagogues, and there will always be people who fall for them. Christianity is just one system some of today's demagogues are abusing for their own gain. Patriotism are fear-mongering are two secular means for demagogues to rise to power that they're also getting a lot of mileage out of in this day and age. Christianity is not supposed to be a demagoguery, so do not lump all Christians in with those who abuse it.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

[ QUOTE ]


Do you Americans worry much about the fundamentalist right? It is something of a concern here in Europe - and we mostly attribute its continuing growth as we perceive it with G.W.Bush - but given the shocking state of newspapers these days, it's almost impossible to fathom what's a genuine piece of cultural news, and what's hyped up for our European tastes.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm so tired I can barely keep my eyes open but I really wanted to participate in this thread.


Diebitter,

I agree with daveT when he says "I think that the Fundamentalists, in the view of most Americans, are not respected." I don't think Americans worry all that much about the fundamentalist right. We are worrying about too many other things, mainly heating bills and filling up our cars. Most of the people I know don't give the fundamentalists a second thought.

I'm not even sure I know what is meant by fundamentalist. Do you mean people who take the bible literally, like who don't believe in teaching their children about evolution? I think these people are a small minority.

I know several bible-studying Christians who are devout, thoughtful people. While others might make fun of them I actually like them a lot. I think they're interesting to talk to and extremely kind. They aren't anything like that horrible video you linked. That is really weird stuff in that video. I hope to god that the Brits and Europeans aren't imagining all of us Americans like that. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] I've never seen anything like that video before and really don't think it is common at all. If that is what they are showing you folks in England and Europe then it's my belief you are being fed a lot of propaganda.


I believe our country is in a decline but I don't think it is the fault of any religious group. I think it's the fault of inept leadership, greed, short-sightedness on everyone's part, and yeah immorality. I suppose you could blame the fundamentalist right for helping to vote George Bush into office but really a lot of people voted him into office, not just fundamentalists.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

[ QUOTE ]

Also, 'Under God' was put in the Pledge during the Eisenhower Administration as an affront to Communism. The founders acknowledged a Creator so I don't have a problem with God being mentioned as long as the government doesn't mandate church attendance or belief in said God.


[/ QUOTE ]

Article 19, section 1 of the Arkansas Constitution: Atheists disqualified from holding office or testifying as witness.
No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any court.


I don't think a lot of people no this, but if you are an Atheists you cant run for office Arkansas and a few other states.So in essence the government of those states are mandating church attendance and a belief in a God.

I wonder how people who believe in god would act if the shoe was on the other foot and they were not allowed to run for office in a state unless they denied god.I imagine that it would not go over to well with the fundamentalist.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

here is an article on Christian Fundamentalism in the military

and Blackwater is a paramilitary organization run by a secretive (or rather out of the spotlight, until recently) right wing fundamentalist named Erik Prince.

I would also point out there is a misnomer in the article in that I differentiate between Fundamentalism and Evangelical Christianity - Dominionism is a strain, which suggests Christians have the right and obligation to take over Civic and Governmental institutions and rewrite the laws to fit the Biblical Code.

I've been studying a bit recently on Dietrich Bonhoffer and the confessing church - (background - DB was a pastor who was an active member of the resistance of the Nazi Regime in WWII) - and many of the members that resisted the Nazi party did so under the belief that devotion to Christ superceeded devotion to one's citizenship or Military service. One can't read the Sermon on the Mount and take Jesus to heart and then go out and kill his fellow man.

On the other hand, a great many established churches stated Romans 13 should imply military service if called upon, but I doubt in retrospect they could argue God's will was done by serving the Nazi Party - but Hitler often invoked the almighty in his speeches and led many of them to believe he was also a good Christian.

rb

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
blarg,

Prayers at the beginning of public meetings go back 230 years or so. I have not heard anyone consider the Founding Fathers as the Fundamentalist Right.


[/ QUOTE ]

Lots of terrible things go back forever. That might well be one of the best flags indicating terrible ideas. Human history is not a store of enlightenment, but of darkness. In America's early years, people were required to pay religious taxes whether they belonged to the community church or not, and not doing so would result in not only criminal prosecution but ostracization from the community, which was as good as death.

Thank goodness for those who held or still hold different and more humane ideas. It's precisely on their whipped, bloody, bowed and shunned backs that progress was possible.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, 'Under God' was put in the Pledge during the Eisenhower Administration as an affront to Communism. The founders acknowledged a Creator so I don't have a problem with God being mentioned as long as the government doesn't mandate church attendance or belief in said God.


[/ QUOTE ]

This strikes me as truly awful and artful reasoning devoid of human empathy. It must be nice not to be the outcast or care about those who might be shunned, even if children. I could never get my conscience in that place, and if there were a God, I would pray with all my might that I never would.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
idk if i would consider it to be "on the rise." there are plenty of people who are not members of the fundamentalist right, but would side with them b/c of shared religious beliefs if you drew a line in the sand. many of these people do not harbor the extremism of fundamentalists, but in the end their religion trumps all.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's another side to that coin here, Tarheel. I consider myself a devout Christian, but in many regards, I consider the fundamentalist right "Christians" in name only. If you look at much of their politics, much of it is 100% contrary to the actual words of Christ. "Fundamental" tenets such as "love they neighbor," and "love your enemies," have been lost on many people who call themselves fundamentalists. In many, many regards, the fundamentalist right acts like the Biblical Pharisees that Jesus railed on time after time for focusing on their own self-righteousness instead of loving thy neighbor, even if that neighbor sticks his dick in the wrong hole or plays poker or worships differently or even worships another god. Hell, I think even atheists have a better grasp of the story of the Good Samaritan and its implications than the average fundamentalist.


[/ QUOTE ]

You strike me as peculiarly understanding and mature for a religious person, a category of people in whom such attributes are far from celebrated.

As an atheist myself, but one with very strong moral standards, I think that among my many born-again Christian friends, I have if anything brought more closer to God by encouraging their best, kindest, most honest, and most responsible and truly Christian spiritual leanings. A number of them have told me as much too. Spirituality is not only restricted to the religious, nor is morality and basic human kindness and decency. Nor is clear thinking and open-mindedness reserved only to atheists and humanists.

Religious people, especially those of the "revealed religions," are often so rigid, dismissive, combative, xenophobic, and unkind that it is especially satisfying to see others interested in living up to what I think is a fair understanding of the messages of the revealed religion and especially Jesus are. And to what the nature of unbelievers are. It is no picnic to be demonized all one's life, and I can tell you that's what my life as an atheist has been. And Christians by and large have not acquited themselves terribly well in response. I still believe that Christians can do so, despite their worst efforts, but it is nice to see a welcoming hand still extended in the religion that purports to pride itself on love.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

By the way, I was choking up reading the rest of your post. It is not easy growing up and living in a culture in which simply being of a different mind, no matter how tolerant, kind, open, accepting and benevolent, is reviled, and America is definitely that kind of place and rushing ardently to be more so. I had a lot of hard times as a kid and have often felt excluded since. Thanks for manifesting the true spirit of a Christian. I wish more Christians would understand the spirit behind the words of a great religion rather than use those words so callously and brutally as weapons and excuses. I have tremendous respect for true Christians, but they are so incredibly hard to find. A real Christian is an athlete of the soul who I would find it very hard not to admire. It would be wonderful and one of my greatest wishes of all to find more people to admire.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
here is an article on Christian Fundamentalism in the military

and Blackwater is a paramilitary organization run by a secretive (or rather out of the spotlight, until recently) right wing fundamentalist named Erik Prince.

I would also point out there is a misnomer in the article in that I differentiate between Fundamentalism and Evangelical Christianity - Dominionism is a strain, which suggests Christians have the right and obligation to take over Civic and Governmental institutions and rewrite the laws to fit the Biblical Code.

I've been studying a bit recently on Dietrich Bonhoffer and the confessing church - (background - DB was a pastor who was an active member of the resistance of the Nazi Regime in WWII) - and many of the members that resisted the Nazi party did so under the belief that devotion to Christ superceeded devotion to one's citizenship or Military service. One can't read the Sermon on the Mount and take Jesus to heart and then go out and kill his fellow man.

On the other hand, a great many established churches stated Romans 13 should imply military service if called upon, but I doubt in retrospect they could argue God's will was done by serving the Nazi Party - but Hitler often invoked the almighty in his speeches and led many of them to believe he was also a good Christian.

rb

[/ QUOTE ]

Interestingly, there has been an ongoing and fairly ridiculous attempt to paint Hitler as anti-religious. This is contrary to the historical record, and an anti-relgious fascist would be unimaginable.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Also, 'Under God' was put in the Pledge during the Eisenhower Administration as an affront to Communism. The founders acknowledged a Creator so I don't have a problem with God being mentioned as long as the government doesn't mandate church attendance or belief in said God.


[/ QUOTE ]

Article 19, section 1 of the Arkansas Constitution: Atheists disqualified from holding office or testifying as witness.
No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any court.


I don't think a lot of people no this, but if you are an Atheists you cant run for office Arkansas and a few other states.So in essence the government of those states are mandating church attendance and a belief in a God.

I wonder how people who believe in god would act if the shoe was on the other foot and they were not allowed to run for office in a state unless they denied god.I imagine that it would not go over to well with the fundamentalist.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish I were more surprised by this. But if true, it is merely the legislative embodiment of what is already clear -- neither Christians in general nor this supposedly free and unprejudiced nation are willing to live without prejudice, contempt, and the elimination of civil rights.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, I was choking up reading the rest of your post. It is not easy growing up and living in a culture in which simply being of a different mind, no matter how tolerant, kind, open, accepting and benevolent, is reviled, and America is definitely that kind of place and rushing ardently to be more so. I had a lot of hard times as a kid and have often felt excluded since. Thanks for manifesting the true spirit of a Christian. I wish more Christians would understand the spirit behind the words of a great religion rather than use those words so callously and brutally as weapons and excuses. I have tremendous respect for true Christians, but they are so incredibly hard to find. A real Christian is an athlete of the soul who I would find it very hard not to admire. It would be wonderful and one of my greatest wishes of all to find more people to admire.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blarg,

Thank you. Your words here mean a lot to me, too. I confess, every time I get on this subject, your words about how religion is a perfectly crafted vehicle for hate from another thread in here echo menacingly in my brain. I went off on quite the tirade then, and it was echoes of the same that, along w/ Tarheel, prompted this latest bit. The above pleases me no end. That someone who'd written such a biting denunciation of Christianity does indeed have not only an acceptance, but an admiration of Christianity as it should be has me a little choked up, too. Unfortunately, I don't exactly live up to your ideal. I am still excluding and unloving far too often. I can't beat human nature all the time, but I can at least help others see what we're both striving toward.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

I grew up in Arkansas so it's hard for me to know how long this stuff has been going on in the rest of the country. We had snake handlers and tongue talkers around all the time.

When I went to the University of Arkansas in the early 80's, we used to get baked and go party at Sister Cindy's rallies on campus.

Has anyone else here ever seen this woman and/or her now-husband Svengali Brother Jed on their campus? I think they stick to mainly the Midwest and South. Funny stuff. I have fond memories of the good times we had hooting it up with Cindy ranting about 'whores' and 'whoremongers'.

This clip gives a bit of a taste, but you'd have to see Cindy live w/o hubby in tow to really appreciate what a hilarious whack job she is.

I don't suppose this furthers the discussion of the thread any but I had a good time reminiscing about the old days being told I was going to Hell for smoking dope and fornicating.

"Hey Cindy, can you point me to some of these whores? I haven't fornicated nearly as much as I'd like the past couple months."

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

Wook, if all Christians were like you I'd find a lot more to admire about religion.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Also, 'Under God' was put in the Pledge during the Eisenhower Administration as an affront to Communism. The founders acknowledged a Creator so I don't have a problem with God being mentioned as long as the government doesn't mandate church attendance or belief in said God.


[/ QUOTE ]

Article 19, section 1 of the Arkansas Constitution: Atheists disqualified from holding office or testifying as witness.
No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any court.


I don't think a lot of people no this, but if you are an Atheists you cant run for office Arkansas and a few other states.So in essence the government of those states are mandating church attendance and a belief in a God.

I wonder how people who believe in god would act if the shoe was on the other foot and they were not allowed to run for office in a state unless they denied god.I imagine that it would not go over to well with the fundamentalist.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish I were more surprised by this. But if true, it is merely the legislative embodiment of what is already clear -- neither Christians in general nor this supposedly free and unprejudiced nation are willing to live without prejudice, contempt, and the elimination of civil rights.

[/ QUOTE ]

About half way down the page are most of the laws that are against atheist holding office.I no it's wiki but its kind of late and i need to get some sleep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrim...ainst_atheists

The laws discriminating against atheists are mostly older laws that are unconstitutional and would be overturned if they were challenged.I do believe though if fundamentalist's had their way these laws would be upheld.Not that it really matters it's clear that nonbelievers could never get elected to any major office anyway.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

That you even try makes you in your heart among the best of people, and I thank and respect you for it. A lot of us are trying with everything we have in us and everything we can hope to eventually find within us, and it's not always easy. I don't think that struggle is any different for Christians than it is for atheists than it is for buddhists or Islamists or anyone. It's basically our life's mission on this planet.

And I wish we would all forgive and encourage each other in that mutual, basic human mission and wish each other the greatest possible success and understanding. I am sure some failure is as inevitable as some success, but I believe we can all find and claim our own individual will to make things better and more in the spirit of Christ as I understand Him. I believe the Christian mission even more than that of other revealed religions makes central and demands the exercise of our own free will to embody the spirit of Christ, and I can't imagine that spirit as one of exclusion, ignorance, or hate. I don't believe Christianity could possibly have gained a foothold in the world, much less preeminence in the Western world from the start of a few scragglers, if it were.

Anyway, I am rambling. I respect the sincerity of your thoughts and goodwill, and it is refreshing that I feel at ease with the idea that you may respect the sincerity of mine. These ideas should be traded back and forth so much more freely, and it is one of my greatest sadnesses regarding public life that they at best have little currency.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

great post wookie. i didn't mean to suggest that fundamentalist christians operated in the spirit of christianity. i just think that if they were to draw the line in the sand, many christians who view themselves as socially moderate/liberal would fall in line-- referendums regarding gay marriage come to mind.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
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idk if i would consider it to be "on the rise." there are plenty of people who are not members of the fundamentalist right, but would side with them b/c of shared religious beliefs if you drew a line in the sand. many of these people do not harbor the extremism of fundamentalists, but in the end their religion trumps all.

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There's another side to that coin here, Tarheel. I consider myself a devout Christian, but in many regards, I consider the fundamentalist right "Christians" in name only. If you look at much of their politics, much of it is 100% contrary to the actual words of Christ. "Fundamental" tenets such as "love they neighbor," and "love your enemies," have been lost on many people who call themselves fundamentalists. In many, many regards, the fundamentalist right acts like the Biblical Pharisees that Jesus railed on time after time for focusing on their own self-righteousness instead of loving thy neighbor, even if that neighbor sticks his dick in the wrong hole or plays poker or worships differently or even worships another god. Hell, I think even atheists have a better grasp of the story of the Good Samaritan and its implications than the average fundamentalist. The calls to arms of the fundamentalist right are so befuddling that I have to wonder if they've ever actually read the Bible they claim to tout. Why is it that the pinko hippies the fundamentalists would label as heathens are the pacifists and the fundamentalists are the ones leading the battle charge? Why do they completely ignore Jesus' words to "give to Caesar what is Caesar's and give to God what is God's?" Separation of church and state is actually prescribed by Jesus himself, but too many Christians miss or forget this.

One thing to bear in mind is that if every you hear about a Christian drawing a line in the sand, you can be pretty sure he's not acting in a Christ-like manner. When did Jesus ever draw a line in the sand or send away someone who came to him, even if that person was a theif, a prostitute, a heretic (Samaritan), a leper, or any other manner of sinner? Jesus does say that he will bring division into friendships, communities, and even families, but that's him saying that the forces of the world will exile Christians, not that the Christians should be drawing lines in the sand and casting out people who aren't pure enough.

This topic always gets me riled up. I'm always half-tempted to go through every single Bible passage that some politically-minded fundamentalist has construed to have some political implications and then just tear their words to shreds by going through the rest of the book that they call holy and showing how severely they've missed the point.

I'll close with the one idea I hope everyone who reads this takes to heart: the abuses of the fundamentalist right are not a fault of Christianity or of Biblical teachings. Not all Christians think like them, and it would not be the conclusion of any reasonable person who read the Bible, the whole Bible, in context, that the teachings therein would naturally lead to the creation of a group with the political goal of forcing, sometimes violently, their brand of righteousness on a morally wayward world. No. The abuses of the fundamentalist right come from people misunderstanding or misusing the words of the Bible in a manner completely contrary to its most central commandments for their own political or economic gain. Does the context of Christianity make it easier for people with their own gain in mind to abuse the system? There are reasonable arguments for yes, but I would argue that there are countless examples throughout history of people (ab)using secular "us versus them" propaganda that takes advantage of weak-minded people in much the same way that the fundamentalist right does. There will always be demagogues, and there will always be people who fall for them. Christianity is just one system some of today's demagogues are abusing for their own gain. Patriotism are fear-mongering are two secular means for demagogues to rise to power that they're also getting a lot of mileage out of in this day and age. Christianity is not supposed to be a demagoguery, so do not lump all Christians in with those who abuse it.

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I really like this post. While I'm agnostic (it's not that I do or don't believe, I just don't care one way or another - it's enough to try and lead a good life, in my philosophy: trying to fathom the universe's secrets is something that can wait till I've fathomed myself), I am very comfortable with root Christianity, as its most fundamental principles of 'love one another' are in deep accord with my own humanist principles.

Likewise, I never feel happy to accept the blanket assertions that religions are the root of all sorts of world problems, because it blindly sweeps away all the good things
(and I believe there are many) done daily in the name of one God or another. We all know about the bad, but we forget the good.


I loathe deliberate institutionalised ignorance like in those videos though. That's child neglect at best and abuse at worst, in my book.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

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I grew up in Arkansas so it's hard for me to know how long this stuff has been going on in the rest of the country. We had snake handlers and tongue talkers around all the time.

When I went to the University of Arkansas in the early 80's, we used to get baked and go party at Sister Cindy's rallies on campus.

Has anyone else here ever seen this woman and/or her now-husband Svengali Brother Jed on their campus? I think they stick to mainly the Midwest and South. Funny stuff. I have fond memories of the good times we had hooting it up with Cindy ranting about 'whores' and 'whoremongers'.

This clip gives a bit of a taste, but you'd have to see Cindy live w/o hubby in tow to really appreciate what a hilarious whack job she is.

I don't suppose this furthers the discussion of the thread any but I had a good time reminiscing about the old days being told I was going to Hell for smoking dope and fornicating.

"Hey Cindy, can you point me to some of these whores? I haven't fornicated nearly as much as I'd like the past couple months."

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In the late 80s/early 90s we have brother Jed every spring at Ohio University. It has to be the same guy. It was pretty awesome (entertainment wise). He would stand on the street corner and preach and yell at women passing by about how they were dressed.

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great post wookie. i didn't mean to suggest that fundamentalist christians operated in the spirit of christianity. i just think that if they were to draw the line in the sand, many christians who view themselves as socially moderate/liberal would fall in line-- referendums regarding gay marriage come to mind.

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I agree with you tarheel. People who do not classify themselves as fundamentalist at all but who call themselves Christian will very often get in line behind a cause. I think religious people in general fall in line, often without giving it much thought.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

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I loathe deliberate institutionalised ignorance like in those videos though. That's child neglect at best and abuse at worst, in my book.

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As for what I saw in the video I loathe this kind of thing too. Trust me DB I really don't think this is common in America, at least not like that video it is not. That's just nuttiness.

But in the past year I've been doing a lot of thinking about this issue of devout Christianity, mostly because I have a couple friends and family members who are born again Christians. They take their religion very seriously, studying the bible 2-3 times a week, praying often. They are viewed as nuts and extremists by most people I know. They are not respected. And yet when I talk to them I'm surprised by how kind and non-judgmental they are. They are very concerned with the direction the country is moving. They are trying to raise their children to be deeply religious while living in a secular world. It's a real challenge.

I have a sister who is an atheist and she thinks it's terrible for my other sister to raise her children to study the bible. She thinks it's a horrible thing to do. Now I doubt she would ever say such a thing to a devout Jew or Muslim or Buddhist but when it comes to Christianity she thinks it's indoctrination.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

These people are not hard-shell evangelists. In the hills, you ain't allowed to have musical instruments in church, 'cause God gave you a voice to praise Him with, and that's all you need.

[censored] heathen hypocrites. Cameras and amplifiers, bah!

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

Please forgive my levity on this issue. I have the highest regard for anyone who walks the talk regarding religion.

We had a 'resort' when I was a kid with a back row of cabins not visible from the road, that were popular with folks enjoying afternoon delights with persons not their spouses. A number of these were some of the loudest Bible thumpers around. I developed a very low tolerance for hypocrisy.

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This strikes me as truly awful and artful reasoning devoid of human empathy. It must be nice not to be the outcast or care about those who might be shunned, even if children. I could never get my conscience in that place, and if there were a God, I would pray with all my might that I never would.

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So you can't refute my logic so you resort to the tried and true dabte tactic of attacking your opponent's character. Since I am apparently devoid of human emphany and lack your moral compass my statement has to horribly wrong? Sorry that my opinion doesn't count since it is at odds with yours. Wookie's religious views would tell him to turn the other cheek. My views tell me just to say good day sir.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

Grunching - I read the first dozen replies or so.

The similarities between the American Fundamentalist Right and fascism are obvious, both in principle and in deed. Over the past several months, there has been a concerted effort of the religious right to bombard media outlets with opinion pieces, commentaries, and letters to the editor painting religion (read: Christianity) as under siege.

They deride supporters of gay marriage as sodomites. They claim schools are marginalizing Christmas, restricting students' ability to pray or wear religious symbols on their persons. They paint the "liberal media" or "East-Coast Intellectuals" and the like as the great Satan. They try to force religion into public school curricula (see Dover, PA). They claim evolution is "just" a theory, despite the innumerable proofs it has sustained.

In short, the Fundamentalists are waging a battle for hearts and minds using classic fascist techniques. They claim the nation is in decline (liberal media, illegal immigrants, gun control, gay marriage, removal of the ten commandments from courthouses, etc.), and that they are victims (threats to "our way of life"). They use half-truths and outright propaganda to advance their agenda. They claim moral authority by virtue of dogma. They are threatened by reason. They make use of scapegoats (liberl media, atheists, gays, terrorists, Islamists, Zionists, whatever).

Where have we seen this before?

I'm not blessed with faith. I see religions as hegemonical systems promulgated by certain human beings to mollify others. Religion holds power over its adherents. Religious leaders likewise serve as lower-level hegemons. Though many, if not most religions foster charity, good will, and peaceful practices, there is always the other side of the coin - the threat of eternal punishment, of guilt, of sin.

Of course, I'm not differentiating between the political "Religious Right" and religious sects. The system of power and control used for political ends could very well be bastardizing real faith. Still, the movement does not seem to be on the decline, and its methods are frighteningly familiar.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

Mr. Wookie, great post. Couldn't agree more.

FWIW, the religious right/fundalmentalist/religious people nametags that alot of you are throwing around is misleading...especially to those not familiar with it. This group in the US are predominately Christians (some may not act like it though). These generalized 'religious' terms could include Muslims, Buddists, Jews, etc. as well depending on your point of view.

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

I switched(by choice)from public school to a small Christian school my sophomore year in HS. This school/church would definitely be considered fundamental/"legalistic". Culottes below the knees for girls, navy knit slacks and tie (square sock-tie FTW!) for the boys. No shorts anytime. I played JV/Varsity basketball and we had to wear sweatpants while playing...LOL! Hair must be a certain length, cheerleaders could not do legkicks...you get the point. The teachers actually lived this type of life 24/7 and it was taught as "the" way according to scripture.

Looking back, I realize how miserable those people were trying to constantly adhere to those misguided principles, especially the females. As for me, I was distracted enough by sports/girlfriends/friends -basic HS stuff- to not be overwhelmed by the rules. I still managed to have a blast during HS. I had a good "balance"/freedom in my home life in that my family did not adhere to the strictures of the school. I simply accepted them as a student.

Fundamentalists seem to think there is some stasis of rigorous piety that can be reached and that it can only be reached in the narrow confines of painting the world demonic. I have yet to meet a truly happy fundy. I imagine they approach some perverse happiness while spewing invectives. But for ones claiming to have a stranglehold on truth and the path to peace, this is hardly rewarding.

I worry less about the kook fringe in the video by OP, than the zeitgeist that will relegate the truths of scripture into obscurity. My school eventually ended- cracking up from the top down. Fundies would never be able to hold a consortium very long because they would always devolve into chaos from a myopic hyper-defensiveness or a who can out-Nit who regarding interpretation of scripture/creed. Rather, I fear moral relativism, nihilism, and iconoclasm will serve to suppress an invaluable source of guidance (if only as an alternative) and "first principles" for life.

Good thread. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America
 

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great post wookie. i didn't mean to suggest that fundamentalist christians operated in the spirit of christianity. i just think that if they were to draw the line in the sand, many christians who view themselves as socially moderate/liberal would fall in line-- referendums regarding gay marriage come to mind.

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I think this is true to and seems to be largely proven out in our political system. Reaching out to christians and encouraging them to be one-issue voters is a vital part of the Republican strategy. "Family Matters Most," and other slogans that are absurdly out of place in politics, as no party has better control over who is cheating on their wife or kisses their babies more, and those things are completely outside the realm of politics anyway.