Curiosity: How are you guys doing?
 

I haven't posted in or read this forum in a while and I wanted to see what it's like these days. I was reading through the archives earlier tonight and came across an interesting hand that I had forgotten. There were some widely varying opinions on it the first time around, so let's see what you guys think now.

Live 15/30

READ THIS:
I am SB with A2o
BB is a very good player and fellow 2+2er who knows me
Other people involved are loose idiots

Preflop:
Loose MP open limps, also loose LP limps, I complete, BB checks

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
I check, BB bets, MP folds, LP folds, I call

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
I bet, BB calls

River: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (note: this makes me two pair, 2 is not just a random blank)
I...


1) Give some discussion on your answer.
2) I didn't feel like making this a multi-part post, but feel free to talk about the other streets too.

Re: Curiosity: How are you guys doing?
 

your hand on flop looks like Ax or a draw. your hand on the turn looks like Ax, a straight with 86, or maybe 2 pair w/ 97. his hand looks like Ax or a diamond draw and he knows you know this. he should not be calling here with much else.

if you check the river he should somewhat expect to be checkraised by something good because his hand looks so much like Ax. i would be really surprised if he ever bluffed you with an unimproved diamond draw.

bet and get the sure bet from A3 A4 A6 A8 AT because he can't value bet some of these given how transparent his hand is.

Re: Curiosity: How are you guys doing?
 

PF: Somewhat depends on blind structure. If SB is 10 I would call, if 5 I might fold depending on how bad the idiots are.
F: I would check, too, hoping to raise a MP or LP donk if they might donk. Since BB bet, everyone else folded, and I have top pair, albeit worst kicker, I call, too.
T: Since you know the BB, I would bet only if you felt that you could fold to a raise, otherwise I'd check call.
R: Since this looks like a blank, I would bet out here. The only other option would be to try for a check/raise, but only if you knew the BB would be likely to try bluff AND the BB thought you might be so tricky as to get him to call your raise. I'd prefer to bet out unless you really knew the BB.

Re: Curiosity: How are you guys doing?
 

The crux of the hand is how often a good TAG is betting Ax in this spot. Your hand is almost always good so you should only c/r if you think he'll bet Ax 51% of the time. He may also bluff with xdxd, but it really looks like hero is going to showdown given the way the hand played out. From his perspective, I just don't think this is the spot to try and bluff at the river. I also don't think he is betting Ax where x<8 into another good TAG in this spot often enough. Betting is the way to go.

Re: Curiosity: How are you guys doing?
 

[ QUOTE ]
PF: Somewhat depends on blind structure. If SB is 10 I would call, if 5 I might fold depending on how bad the idiots are.

[/ QUOTE ]
SB was 10.

Re: Curiosity: How are you guys doing?
 

check and raise if BB bets.

1.If BB bet and A on the flop he will probably bet a river too if you check and you can raise.
2.If he was beting a FD on the flop he did not make it so he will not call your river bet.

Re: Curiosity: How are you guys doing?
 

doing fine, thank you.

i've been known to spray an extra sb preflop to eliminate "very good players" from a hand and get the pot shorthanded with loose/bad players. A2o is a bit weak, but i may have at least considered it.

on the river, if the guy is good he's not putting in two bets with many one pair hands in a pot this size(unless your image dictates otherwise; at this point i haven't that info). so i would likely just bet and hope he has a hand to payoff with. our line makes it very difficult to look like a busted draw or a foldable made hand, so i think that severely devalues checking to induce a bluff. if that's the case we can lose value from the pair hands in his range that will pay a bet on the end but will gladly check behind if given the opportunity. if he is a relentless value bettor, it might widen his betting range a bit but i still think putting the bet there ourself is going to be best.

based on his description, making the assumption he is capable of alot of things, i would probably call if he raises.

Re: Curiosity: How are you guys doing?
 

u play poker?

anyways i would bet the river and hope he has something to call you with because even if you checkraise the river he's going to need something to pay you off with let alone bet with and i seriously doubt you will induce a bluff from a missed draw from him. if he had a strong hand you would have found out on the turn when you lead into him. as it is, his hand looks pretty weak, at least too weak to value bet the river, let alone pay 2 bets with it. play it straightforward and bet.

Re: Curiosity: How are you guys doing?
 

Preflop: Fine in a 2/3 blind structure

Flop: Since opponent is capable of betting a draw in the circumstance and a checkraise won't lose anybody, a call is fine.

Turn: I guess betting here is reasonable, since you probably will go to showdown anyway, betting is better than calling.

River: Since he probably doesn't raise unless you're beat, the gating factor on check/bet is how often he bets a busted draw vs how often he checks behind with a hand he'd call a bet with.

edited to add: I bet the river. Checking after betting the turn looks suspicious. I think you miss a bet way too often by checking here.

Re: Curiosity: How are you guys doing?
 

Must be me, but I don't get the stop 'n go... if you're going to donk the turn, might as well raise the flop. What will you do against a turn raise btw? Either that, or you can play it in wa/wb fashion, c/c the turn, b/f the river, however with2 pair, obviously it becomes b/c...possibly 3 bet.

Re: Curiosity: How are you guys doing?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Must be me, but I don't get the stop 'n go... if you're going to donk the turn, might as well raise the flop. What will you do against a turn raise btw? Either that, or you can play it in wa/wb fashion, c/c the turn, b/f the river, however with2 pair, obviously it becomes b/c...possibly 3 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

imo the turn donk will get looked up by many hands, including ones w/o an A, whereas a flop CR will cause villian the fold all the hands we beat and call down all the hands that beat us.


that being said i bet the river. your waking up on the turn probably confused the villain and he'll check anything less than two pair on it.

Re: Curiosity: How are you guys doing?
 

At first I thought this was an easy PF fold. Then I saw it was 15/30. And with that structure I think this is obv an easy crud complete.

I actually don't get the flop check. I bet this. Do we raise if the bet comes from LP rather than BB?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Must be me, but I don't get the stop 'n go... if you're going to donk the turn, might as well raise the flop. What will you do against a turn raise btw? Either that, or you can play it in wa/wb fashion, c/c the turn, b/f the river, however with2 pair, obviously it becomes b/c...possibly 3 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
imo the turn donk will get looked up by many hands, including ones w/o an A, whereas a flop CR will cause villian the fold all the hands we beat and call down all the hands that beat us.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah that's why I sometimes use the call flop, donk turn move.

I think the river is an easy bet. I donk think we've given the impression we would fold to a bluff. Those times he value bets the river, I don't think he'll pay off the raise enough to make the c-r correct.

Re: Curiosity: How are you guys doing?
 

I'd bet here. You should be good, as BB can't have 86 here b/c he didn't raise the turn, and if he's holding 43 then oh well it's just another BB special. With the weak A, I don't mind c/c'ing the flop at all... very prudent with a drawish board I think.

Re: Curiosity: How are you guys doing?
 

James, I think raising preflop is absolutely maniacal. I can't even believe you'd suggest that. A2o, out of position, in what's going to be at least a 3 way pot against loose players...wow, dude.

Honeybadger, I think your confusion is part of the reason my line works. A lot of the time when someone you think is good does something weird looking there's a tendency to not trust them/think they're trying to outplay you. Combine that with the fact that no one wants to have to come back to 2+2 and read about getting bluffed by another poster, you'll get some calls doing stuff like this that you might not normally get, maybe from something like a 7. Also, if I check raise the flop and he has a draw I might really be screwing myself if he decides to play it aggressively. I think there's a lot to be said for controlling the number of bets that can go into the pot when you're out of position.

Re: Curiosity: How are you guys doing?
 

[ QUOTE ]
James, I think raising preflop is absolutely maniacal. I can't even believe you'd suggest that. A2o, out of position, in what's going to be at least a 3 way pot against loose players...wow, dude.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. i guess my post came across a bit more along the lines of "you should raise this" rather than "i raise lighter pf to get good players out". when i say it should be considered, i think i misstated my intentions. sorry.

IMO, raising with that hand in this spot(especially considering the value we have in implied odds given the cost to complete) is a very poor play.

Re: Curiosity: How are you guys doing?
 

who was the 2p2er, btw? that might change some things depending upon their game/style.

Re: Curiosity: How are you guys doing?
 

It was TheMetetron. I left it out because he hasn't posted in limit forums for a long time. He played well though, I didn't know who he was when I sat down but he was clearly very good. When I found out who he was I wasn't surprised.

Re: Curiosity: How are you guys doing?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Honeybadger, I think your confusion is part of the reason my line works. A lot of the time when someone you think is good does something weird looking there's a tendency to not trust them/think they're trying to outplay you. Combine that with the fact that no one wants to have to come back to 2+2 and read about getting bluffed by another poster, you'll get some calls doing stuff like this that you might not normally get, maybe from something like a 7. Also, if I check raise the flop and he has a draw I might really be screwing myself if he decides to play it aggressively. I think there's a lot to be said for controlling the number of bets that can go into the pot when you're out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I can see truth in that; although, if I had been behind you with some pair, I would've raised your turn donk bet, folding to a 3 bet, and planning to check behind the river. Is that bad? What would you have done had this happened?

Re: Curiosity: How are you guys doing?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Honeybadger, I think your confusion is part of the reason my line works. A lot of the time when someone you think is good does something weird looking there's a tendency to not trust them/think they're trying to outplay you. Combine that with the fact that no one wants to have to come back to 2+2 and read about getting bluffed by another poster, you'll get some calls doing stuff like this that you might not normally get, maybe from something like a 7. Also, if I check raise the flop and he has a draw I might really be screwing myself if he decides to play it aggressively. I think there's a lot to be said for controlling the number of bets that can go into the pot when you're out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I can see truth in that; although, if I had been behind you with some pair, I would've raised your turn donk bet, folding to a 3 bet, and planning to check behind the river. Is that bad? What would you have done had this happened?

[/ QUOTE ]
I would have called a raise. I'm not going to put myself in a spot to fold a showdownable hand here. If I didn't feel I could call a raise I would have checked because the pot is heads up.

I don't think it's a great place to raise with a 5 or 7. If I have an ace I'm calling and I can't really have a worse hand that isn't a draw because I would have folded the flop. Sometimes I'll have a 9 with a draw for a turned 2nd pair, which I'm obviously not folding. If I have a draw with no pair obviously it's a good raise, but I don't think I'd ever play a draw this way because there's too good a chance it's going to end up with a showdown when I'm behind.