NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

I think I continuation bet too much (probably 95%+ of time). I'm having trouble figuring out spots where I should be checking behind on the flop. Maybe if people could post situations where they don't cbet, we could all figure out a little more about cbetting.

The main situation where I don't continuation bet are paired low card flops (455, 226, etc), against aggressive players. Actually, I don't do it against a lot of players as they seem to like to get frisky in these spots.

I also don't cbet on very connected boards, like 7c8cTc, 678, etc.

One situation I'm unsure about is monotone flops where I don't have any of the suit. So, for example, an all-diamond flop and I'm holding AsKs.

Also, if I'm checking paired low card flops against aggressive players, should I be doing that both the times I do connect and the times I don't, or would that be giving my opponent too much credit?

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

i definitely continuation bet on low paired flops. if they are apt to bluff at you on these flops, exploit that!

i generally dont bother cont betting monotone flops unless i think i am ahead (so i might cont bet with the AKs, depending on the chance i thought villain has made a pair).

also, HU, unless the opponent is very weak, i tend to check every sort of flop now and then if i think i am behind, because
1) makes villain give your other continuation bets more respect
2) allows you to slowplay flops every now and then.

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

The point in HU is NOT to get respect for aour C-bets [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
build your game around it. Well, talking about CASH.

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

hmm, im talking about sitngos. when you have a big skill edge, its nice to be able to play small ball.

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

especially in the turbos

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

I hate c-betting low flops where I whiff unless I have a draw with my overs. My favorite flop to c-bet is like K 7 2 rainbow. I never get called. Otherwise in the first few levels I never c-bet with air and I try to see a showdown to see what my opponent is doing early on.

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

Obv depends on the opponent, but in general, consider checking behind if:

1. you have a gutshot draw, esp if villain c/r or calls too often, and esp if your hand has less SD value than, say, K high
2. you have something like A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and board comes 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
3. if you hit top pair on a safe board and villain tends to c/f too often on the flop (but may hit a turn card or bluff turn/river). I almost always cbet top pair hands, but if villain is very weak tight, consider a check.

If you have something like AJo on 422 board, definitely Cbet, even against aggressive players. [ QUOTE ]
i definitely continuation bet on low paired flops. if they are apt to bluff at you on these flops, exploit that!

[/ QUOTE ] I think this is very good advice. Against certain players I will 3bet/shove their c/r or raise their donkbet on a 422 rainbow flop. Once in a while I even flat call on flop and shove over the turn (pref with paint cards and rarely with ATC).

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

I didn't read everything in this thread, but there's a ton of value to be gained in small and medium stakes husngs from holding off on c-bets.

This is obviously a very complex subject matter that is extremely player dependent, but I think that a lot of players (myself included, especially in the past) tend to cbet in some unnecessary spots where we're not getting max EV on the hand.

I think one of the causes of this problem is that it is much easier to just cbet when it doubt because it's easy to identify or it appears to be easy to identify if a player is calling or folding to too many cbets.

It's generally a little harder, or it at least requires a little more patience and focus to pick up on valuable post flop (as in turn and river) leaks, but they can be more valuable than flop leaks.

You might be surprised at some of the crazy stuff people will do when their hand hits or misses on later streets, but you will be surprised at how obvious it is to you. It just requires a little studying, patience and practice.

This might not be valuable to some players, in fact it might be very obvious, but I think this will help some players.

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

Wow, I think there's a lot of disagreement in this thread. Some people are saying they don't like c-betting low card, paired flops (myself included), while others are saying those great to c-bet.

ChicagoRy, I found your post very interesting, but I was wondering if you're talking about c-betting less when one has a made hand, or c-betting less when you miss the flop?

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

Different players call for different situations.

I don't want to be specific, as it would honestly take me awhile and a lot of words to really put down some clear cut thoughts on this issue, I'm just speaking in general that it is often overlooked the value of checking behind (I'm not telling you to check behind as standard, just be aware of later street leaks that you can exploit for more value with check behinds).

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

The frequency of your c-bet is less important than the size of your c-bet. There is no worth in c-betting pot-size if you can take it down with a c-bet 1/2 pot size and gain the same information. The frequency of your c-bet depends on several factors:

How many hands you play:

Obviously, the more hands you play, the more you must be willing to c-bet. The less hands you play, you should probably c-bet less frequently to induce bluffs. The frequency of your c-bet depends on how your opponent adjusts to you, if at all.

How often your opponent folds to the c-bet:

If your opponent folds too often to a c-bet, then there is no reason to stop. At this point, you may want to consider playing 100/100.
'
Your opponent calls too much:

Now we lost the bluffing part of our c-bet. Against a passive opponent, you should drop your frequency, and most importantly, the size of your c-bet. It is not a good idea to simply stop c-bet bluffing here.

Finally, you opponent c/r's constantly:

I continue c-betting. This match should not last long.

The priority should not be to figure out a specific opponent, but to figure out the general tendencies of the opponents at your level, and play until proven otherwise, which will not happen often.

gl;

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

I think WHEN to cbet is like >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>> how much to cbet. I cbet standard amounts and somebody would need to do a lot of convincing work to change that. HUsngs are just way too short to get such accurate reads as to alter the amounts (more...) profitably (...than the std amount).

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
Finally, you opponent c/r's constantly:

I continue c-betting. This match should not last long.


[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you can explain what are your lines in relation to your holdings against someone c/r too much.

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Finally, you opponent c/r's constantly:

I continue c-betting. This match should not last long.


[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you can explain what are your lines in relation to your holdings against someone c/r too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

The main reason why people are struggling to beat the 5s and 11s is that they refuse to gamble. If they c/r too much, you must be willing to push back marginally. You should figure that their calling range is larger than what you would think is sensible.

The best is when they constantly c/r ai, you must be willing to call with middle pair, etc. it is unlikely that you will get good money when you hold a big pair or the nuts, so you must extract with marginal hands. They aren't as thin as they seem.

An example would be holding 85 on a 35T board. You c-bet and face a c/r ai. This is likely a call. One of the last 11's I played was against a winning player. I held 42 on a 345 board facing a c/r ai. I called and he showed A6. I have 72% equity. Against a losing player, this is a clear call.

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

dave is giving some good advice. my ability to call all ins with utter crap is, i reckon, worth afew % points of roi. of course it does lead to the occasional (by that i mean pretty regular) hand where i look like a total drooler. on days where it goes wrong you feel like a moron, but on days where it goes right you feel like the top poker player in the world. i work on the principle: villain shoves into a small pot on a non drawy board before the river and there is no metagame in play/ you have no read on this then they do not have much. has served me well. (beware of people who shove small top pairs on low flops before calling AI with AQ high :P)

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

Your situation is pretty basic/vague but don't be so results oriented or more accurately don't forget you're behind a ton more when they have a better 5/T+ compared to when they get it in with AQ or something on that board.

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

Great advice, thanks DaveT & tmcdmck

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

It is true that sometimes you make the wrong decisions, and some basic stuff looks risky, but you aren't going to get better at this game if you peddle the nuts all day.

[ QUOTE ]
Your situation is pretty basic/vague but don't be so results oriented or more accurately don't forget you're behind a ton more when they have a better 5/T+ compared to when they get it in with AQ or something on that board.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT:

If people are playing 5s and struggling, it is only a 5 dollar lesson to learn the difference, or make it 2, if you choose.

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

I'm not saying I don't call in that situation, I'm just saying you should be a little more specific with your examples so people don't take you the wrong way.

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

Yeah, I think the only reason I'm calling an a/i there is because I have a pair AND an OESD. Calling a c/r ai with something like mid-pair (and maybe one overcard) on a dry board seems like a huge leak to me...barring a huge pot or a specific read.

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

I don't cbet all the time unlss my opponent is pretty weak. I do not like to cbet with air more than a couple times in a row because a lot of times people will start c-raising you or just calling you down with anything and you're stuck with A high the next 2 streets and have no idea if they are trying to get you to bet their hand for them or if they are floating with Q9 high or if they have a draw or what. It's great however when you've cbet with air twice in a row and then the next two raising hands you get you hit top pair or better both times. They will start to think you are full of [censored]. Going back to my original statement, I don't cbet that much with air because people in the 5's and 10's like to call a lot and I have no clue where I am. Obviously I will cbet any piece that I may catch. Also, unless your opponent has no clue whatsoever (even really moronic opponents will figure out that you always check-fold when you have nothing and bet when you have something), I will c-bet with air against opponents that I wouldn't normally because of the factors I listed above (c-raiser, calling station, etc).

All IMHO.

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying I don't call in that situation, I'm just saying you should be a little more specific with your examples so people don't take you the wrong way.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I was a good teacher, I would charge moneys. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Somekid, the read is that our opponent is a c/r ai bluff monkey. By "read," I don't mean that I just blew off 600 chips c-betting to figure this out. I hope that I am correct in this situation. That is really the best I can do: make a read and go with it. Tmc makes a point that sometimes you feel like an idiot, and other times you feel like Phil Ivey. "Don't be afraid to fail" is the best advice I could ever give to anyone playing poker.

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

I tend to cbet most of the time, especially when i flop, top pair, a medium strength hand like middle pair, or if i flop a nice draw i would bet the flop to build the pot.

When i do not or might not cbet sometimes :

1) If the board texture is scary and didnt help my hand in any way.

i.e : i hold 33 and the flop is 7d8cJd..

2)On boards that are heavily connected with multiple draws ( straight draws, flush draws) on these flops we have almost zero fold equity and we really cant put villain on a specific hand/draw..

3)When i flop a monster ( on a board that almost def. didnt hit my opponent) or a strong hand..


If we have AT, or KT on a flop of 5A5 or 5K5 then i might consider not cbetting, since our hand is so strong that he might not be able to catch on whatever he might hit on both the turn and river, id let him take the free card hoping to extract value out of him later on..

4) If i hold a hand that has decent backdoor draws or a gutshot straight draw in which taking a free turn card will help me re-evaluate my position.

As a concept mixing it up is def. a good strategy, but it is really dependant alot on our hand and the board..

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
i hold 33 and the flop is 7d8cJd.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you raise before the flop with this hand if you are only looking for set value?

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i hold 33 and the flop is 7d8cJd.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you raise before the flop with this hand if you are only looking for set value?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. How would you go about playing a hand that is difficult to play on 90% of flops?

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

id usually be raising 33 to 3xbb when the stacks are 50 or 75 bb which makes playing it for set value "almost correct",

I would c-bet on a A 9 4 flop , just not a very coordinated/draw heavy board.

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

Altought that's very situational, I don't think c-beting with other than air is even considered to be a c-bet. IMO you should c-bet specifically with air, just because if your opponent calls you're pretty much done with the hand, no regrets. If that means you'll bet a scary board or a dry one, do what you have to do to make him to fold. Obv with a str8ish board a better line sometimes is to check behind the flop & raise his turn lead... anyway. phatjeffrey said he's c-bet'ing mostly dry boards which IMO has 2 nuances: 1. you're subject of floatings more often; 2. those usually are WA-WB situations, make easier to fold if called.

Curious to see what chicagory & Tnixon have to say

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

IDK if there is some official definition for c-betting, but the term is called "continuation betting" because your continuing your preflop action. I don't think this any implications of whether you have a hand although most people seem to take it to mean that a c-bet is always made with air. This attitude doesn't really make sense to me.

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
IDK if there is some official definition for c-betting, but the term is called "continuation betting" because your continuing your preflop action. I don't think this any implications of whether you have a hand although most people seem to take it to mean that a c-bet is always made with air. This attitude doesn't really make sense to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well this doesn't matter too much. I just called for the definition b/c my point have to do with it.

Anyway u prolly right c-bet is to continue PF action regardless of holdings.

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

yeah a continuation bet is a continuation bet regardless of holdings. no doubt.

Re: NLTRN: Situations where you do not continuation bet
 

the frequency of your c-bets should be based on the player your playing for example if i raise pre and whiff a flop like:

9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I would c-bet vs a player who folds a good amount of the time to my c-bets but i wouldnt do it against the type of player who calls preflop raises with off suit connecting hands that will hit this board.

On the other hand if the flop is
A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
i would be MUCH more likely to c bet this versus the standard guy who calls every raise preflop OOP than a guy who is selective with his preflop defences because it is more likely to hit the tighter guy than the loose guy.

just my thoughts [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]