Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

okay, every month we get this, so maybe it's time to discuss it as a group. I'm not raising it because I feel strongly about it, but because it's constantly being pushed for by a core of users.


My opinion: In favour of splitting in two, probably at nl100 and above, but (a) I don't feel that strongly on it and am fine with it staying as is, and
(b) not sure if nl100 is the best split point, nl200 might be better.

I personally am happy to mod both or either. I play from nl25 up to nl200, depending on mood/reasons (eg I often use nl25 for testing ideas/strategies).

If we want new mods for the lower one, Phydaux or Mike Kelly seem good choices. New mods for higher - no one springs to mind. Having said that, don't think we need any new mods, and we can parcel it out among us (or just we all mod both forums).


Any thoughts?

Re: Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

seems reasonable. same mods modding both fora would make the most sense to.

Re: Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

we have been using the FRnl forums asa the defacto live NL forums for 2/5 and lower, a split only assumes the players are playing online - this might further alienates live full ring players.

Also how do you think it would affect forum traffic? Just because its something that the people ask for doesn't mean they would like the results - keep that in mind. The end user usually see the big picture.

Re: Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

This is where Sniper's numbers would be useful.

Re: Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

CMAR did some counts last time we discussed this (or maybe the time before) to suggest it probably wasn't a good idea.

But frankly, we just usually discuss it by PM, but I thought it was worth doing in here this time.

Re: Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is where Sniper's numbers would be useful.

[/ QUOTE ]

how? His research couldn't predict how people could migrate - am I missing something?

Re: Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

Ah Sniper. I miss that guy and wonder what happened to him. cabn PMed me that Sniper goes good with chianti. Any clue what I am supposed to make of this information? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

Plese don't turn this into a Sniper thread.

[ QUOTE ]
This is where Sniper's numbers would be useful.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really agree. While it doesnt provide a perfect predictor, it does give us a good sense of forum traffic growth. It was growing really well prior to his departure, but I honestly think that growth has stagnated. I could be wrong, but that's my impression. I'm not sure if the admins have this data, or could drum it up.

As mentioned, that doesn't necessarily predict how splitting the forums would ultimately work out. Other mods have indicated (when we've discussed this previously) that it actually enhanced turnout b/c players felt more comfortable posting (in terms of micro/low stakes) hands or felt they could get quality resonses (in terms of high stakes hands).

That said, the last figures I saw, we were running well below where uNL and SSNL were at before they split. Not that is necessarily a prereq or anything. What was the MTT split like?

Re: Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ah Sniper. I miss that guy and wonder what happened to him. cabn PMed me that Sniper goes good with chianti. Any clue what I am supposed to make of this information? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

get some fava beans and find out.

http://retrocrush.buzznet.com/scary/lambs.jpg

Re: Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

[ QUOTE ]
how? His research couldn't predict how people could migrate - am I missing something?


[/ QUOTE ]

No, it wasn't a predictor, just a simple comparison of the viewing statistic available on the main page.

FRNL is a solid performer when compared to strat forums as a whole. However, it is still easily the smallest No Limit forum.

As I write this:

High Stakes (99 viewing)
Medium Stakes (100 viewing)
Small Stakes (121 viewing)
Micro Stakes (65 viewing)
Full Ring (51 viewing)

Obv this is not the best metric to use and it is very flawed but I think it gives us a reasonable ballpark.

I'm sure FRNL will inevitably be split my worry is that doing so prematurely will result in two small forums that won't have the critical mass required to remain vibrant.

The push for splitting the forum mostly comes from small stakes players who feel cooler hanging with mid-stakes players than micro-stakes players.

The complaint is that there are too many threads of various levels to keep up with. However, I think this is a straw man as the reality is that we're averaging less than 50 new threads a day.

In addition, the claim is made that splitting the forum will cause a migration of players over from MSNL/HSNL who have not wanted to sully themselves by associating with the great unwashed. I find that a dubious claim, at best.

The reason small stakes and micro stakes full ring players flocked to FRNL is that they were such a small minority in SSNL/uNL and very marginalized. If full ring players do not feel that way in MSNL/HSNL there's very little impetus for them to switch. At least not for a very long time until the full ring forum(s) establish themselves as an attractive alternative.

Re: Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

[ QUOTE ]
we have been using the FRnl forums asa the defacto live NL forums for 2/5 and lower, a split only assumes the players are playing online - this might further alienates live full ring players.

Also how do you think it would affect forum traffic? Just because its something that the people ask for doesn't mean they would like the results - keep that in mind. The end user usually see the big picture.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're currently only getting a handful of live threads. 8 in the last week. I'm sure whatever happens live players can be accommodated.

Re: Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

i'm not really in favor of a split. fr has not grown to unmanageable levels, not even close. right now the community is great, good advice in threads, etc. cmar is right with his read that it makes people feel cooler to be a rung higher than other people playing the same game. i also agree that eventually it will split.

that being said, i don't think it's a big deal and if the users really want it and make good points, we should go for it. there has to be better reasons though.

as far as splitting and modding if it happened, i would push for 100nl+ to be a forum. just 200 and up wouldnt be enough and 100/200 are v similar. i don't think we would really need to add a new mod as we already have 4 which is more than enough, we all should just be modded on both forums. if for some reason it was really felt that someone was needed, i would push for someone who plays higher stakes to help me mod the higher stakes fr forum. futuredoc comes to mind as he is very much respected in the forum and i think he'd make fair decisions. i think the_main would be awesome as well. both those guys would do a great job. to be honest, main really would fit the forum well, he participates all the time, you never seem him being snappy with anyone. he's just a good guy and a true full ring grinder.

i don't think anyone plays 200nl+ regularly on the mod team right now. i only play 200nl and 2-5 or 5-10 live. i can't remember what berge plays (i think 200nl?) and i know cmar and db both go between limits up to 200. would be nice to put in main or futuredoc in the higher forum if the split happened.

cliffs notes: not really in favor of split, if everyone wants it and brings up good points to convince me, then i'll go along. the_main would make a great mod if we did split it, i would want him on the higher limit forum with me and whoever else. i think just putting all 4 on both forums would be fine as well.

Re: Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

BTW, this month's discussion is here:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...umber=13030890

There's a lot more support for a split this time around, however, it's the afternoon crowd so tilted towards full-timers. I'd expect to see it shift as the part-timers and casual players get home from work.

Re: Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

teh_main == good choice for higher. Even though I can read him like a book.

Re: Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

Yeah, I play 200NL semi-regularly but I don't have a ton of hands there. Usually just a couple good tables sprinkled in while multi-tabling. I've also played some 400NL but even less than 200NL. 100NL is really my bread and butter.

I would assume the split to be at 100NL to coincide with SSNL/uNL and ensure there's some traffic in both forums. A 200NL+ forum would be really dead.

I'm still pretty much against a split, but I don't consider myself at all militant about it. If it's clearly what the people want then I'm def not gonna fight against it. I think there's a good chance it sets traffic back six months or so but not a huge deal.

Re: Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
how? His research couldn't predict how people could migrate - am I missing something?


[/ QUOTE ]

No, it wasn't a predictor, just a simple comparison of the viewing statistic available on the main page.

FRNL is a solid performer when compared to strat forums as a whole. However, it is still easily the smallest No Limit forum.

As I write this:

High Stakes (99 viewing)
Medium Stakes (100 viewing)
Small Stakes (121 viewing)
Micro Stakes (65 viewing)
Full Ring (51 viewing)

Obv this is not the best metric to use and it is very flawed but I think it gives us a reasonable ballpark.

I'm sure FRNL will inevitably be split my worry is that doing so prematurely will result in two small forums that won't have the critical mass required to remain vibrant.

The push for splitting the forum mostly comes from small stakes players who feel cooler hanging with mid-stakes players than micro-stakes players.

The complaint is that there are too many threads of various levels to keep up with. However, I think this is a straw man as the reality is that we're averaging less than 50 new threads a day.

In addition, the claim is made that splitting the forum will cause a migration of players over from MSNL/HSNL who have not wanted to sully themselves by associating with the great unwashed. I find that a dubious claim, at best.

The reason small stakes and micro stakes full ring players flocked to FRNL is that they were such a small minority in SSNL/uNL and very marginalized. If full ring players do not feel that way in MSNL/HSNL there's very little impetus for them to switch. At least not for a very long time until the full ring forum(s) establish themselves as an attractive alternative.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice post CMAR. I agree with your thinking there.

Re: Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

CMAR - I'm on the same page with you.

Re: Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

CMAR, that's definately where I was 6-months ago...heck, maybe even 3.

I'm starting to buy into the argument that even if quantity doesn't merit a change, perhaps quality does. Realizing that people can give quality advice now, should they choose, I see a lot of people making comments and not discussing them. This goes both ways, with low-stakes players giving their two cents on a NL200 hand w/o grasping concepts and a NL200 regular commenting on a NL25 hand of "get it all in!"

Our goal, regardless of how, should be to facilitate good, high quality discussion on hands. How we get there, I'm not entirely sure. Is splitting one way to try and improve quality? Arguably, yes.

We have strategy forums with significantly less traffic (all the limit and other games) and while FR NL/PL is certainly not out of control, in terms of post counts/views--I don't fully agree that splitting it will let it rot on the vine. In some ways, doing a little pruning might be best for things in the longrun.

I'm coming around to the concept of at least giving it a shot.

Fully agree it has to be: NL50 and below, NL100 and up

Re: Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

CMAR

I think I agree with a lot of your conclusions, but like Berge, I think it's worth a shot to see if the quality will benefit rather than the quantity. I'm also concerned the endless energy wasted on arguing for a forum split is corrosive to the forum vibe.

Re: Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

Okay, so basically among FRNL mods we're 50/50 on the issue of splitting with seemingly none of us having a really strong opinion either way.

We do seem to be in agreement that 100NL+/50NL- is the way to go with only diebitter equivocating slightly.

The forum thread itself seems universally pro-split at this point with really only me being the dissenting opinion. However, a lot of the forum wants a 200NL+ split but I think that's just bias according to their play level and not the good of the forum - If they were playing 1000NL that's where they'd want the split too.

So unless the thread changes tone considerably what say we go on and move ahead with the split?

I'd suggest the two new forums be FRNL and uFRNL. That leaves open the possibility of a future FRNL split along small/mid/high stakes lines if that's ever warranted. And I think the four of us are def mod enough to handle the two forums at this time.

Re: Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

100nl is fine with me. I like that one best, actually.

Admins need to okay the split, and they may want to hold off till after the new site, which is the week after thanksgiving, IIRR.

Re: Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

Alright let's do it. If it doesn't work out we can just group it back, and we have room to resplit if need, but I really fail to see that happening anytime soon. All 4 of us can just mod the 2 forums, makes things easier, any more mods right now is overkill.

Re: Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

I agree, let's go for it.

If we have agreement here, can we pick one of us to liaise with both the forum and the admins to make it happen in a timely way.

Of course, it may have to wait till after the upgrade.

I don't mind doing this, and I don't mind if someone else wants to.

Re: Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

Berge? nation? CMAR? Any comments?

Re: Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

no new forums before december 3. it gives you plenty of time to make an informed decision.

Re: Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

[ QUOTE ]
no new forums before december 3. it gives you plenty of time to make an informed decision.

[/ QUOTE ]


okay thanks Mat.

Re: Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

I've said my 2 cents. Give it a whirl.

Re: Full Ring Mods comment: Time for a split?
 

Gogogogogoo!