How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

I am somewhat new to 6 max and in general the game is much more aggressive, which i like. The following hand came up and was just wondering how heavy on the gas do people get in something like the following hand:

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP caps</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP 3-bets</font>, Hero ????


Do you just call at this point assuming he has a set or do you cap?

Sorry if this is standard/Basic.
Thanks,
Ruby

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

You really need a read on the villain here, oe at least some stats.

Also, depending upon MP and the blinds, you probably want to be raising this pre-flop.

As played I call down and expect to win my fair share. Without reads, it's difficult to put villain on a range. Some will play a draw like this, others only a set, others TPTK or something like A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

Raise preflop for sure.

depending on my feel for the mp, I c/c the turn and reevaluate based off of the river card.

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

raise preflop and as played call down

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

I raise PF to isolate if villain is fishy and the blinds fold too much. He could have a set of 4's but I have seen villains taking this line w/ Ahxh. Without reads I call this down.

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

Raise preflop and the hand will play out differently.

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

I don't think I would raise the turn here. He doesn't have AK, so he'd have to be going nuts with KJ or some wacky 2 pair to have a worse made hand. A really big part of his range is sets and another K9. He might be going crazy with a flush draw, but there's really not much value in charging a flush in this spot because when someone semibluff-caps a strong draw on the flop they are generally going to barrel off on the turn and river. So if you raise a flush draw on the turn here, you're going to get 2 BB from him when you win, and you're going to pay him 3 BB (or 4 if you get CR on the river) when he hits his flush. If you don't raise him, you're going to get 2 bets when you win and pay him 2 bets when you lose. Also, it's pretty likely that you're chopping or drawing to 2-4 outs here. Just call down from the flop cap.

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

Also, everyone who says "raise preflop":

Sure, it might be a little better to raise preflop in this spot, but overlimping is fine too. It depends on the limper's limping range and how tight and/or aggressive the blinds are preflop and how loose they are postflop. Raising here with K9s is great if you can predictably isolate the limper, but if the blinds are good they will know that you're isolating loose preflop and will pound you with all sorts of hands, and then you'll be playing a big pot HU or 3 handed with a K9s. So sometimes you would want to raise preflop here, but it's not automatic and if you choose to overlimp and play a small pot in position, then it's a small mistake at worst, and will sometimes be the correct play.

And if you do raise and isolate preflop, then the hand will go something like this on the flop:

MP checks, hero bets, MP raises, hero 3bets, MP caps

What a world of difference!

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

MJ...I dont know that I agree with most of what youve said.

Your raise preflop to isolate and to try and create some dead money. SB is still getting bad odds to call with most hands. The will be less willing to repop into 2-3 people.

k9s is a pretty automatic button raise.

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

[ QUOTE ]
And if you do raise and isolate preflop, then the hand will go something like this on the flop:

MP checks, hero bets, MP raises, hero 3bets, MP caps

What a world of difference!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's a big difference between playing HU and 4-handed on the flop, and I think it's a big difference between having a donk and a raise before I act on flop instead of one check. Also when c/r:d on flop you don't need to 3-bet. Since you are in position you can wait and see the turn card and then decide if you want to call down or raise. Also you get some FE from a raise that can be useful if you get it HU with a limper.

I think the difference between overlimping and raising preflop in this situation is huge.

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

[ QUOTE ]
MJ...I dont know that I agree with most of what youve said.

Your raise preflop to isolate and to try and create some dead money. SB is still getting bad odds to call with most hands. The will be less willing to repop into 2-3 people.

k9s is a pretty automatic button raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you raise K9s on the button when it's folded to you, a big part of your value is when the blinds give up without a fight. There's no way you can win this hand without seeing a flop.

I agree that I would usually raise k9s in this spot. I'd probably raise K8s and perhaps K7s. But not raising K9s is just not a big mistake here, and it's not the interesting part of the hand. I think that raising the turn here is a much larger mistake than failing to raise preflop, so we're doing the OP a disservice by just saying "raise preflop" and not discussing what his OP was about.

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I think it's a big difference between playing HU and 4-handed on the flop, and I think it's a big difference between having a donk and a raise before I act on flop instead of one check. Also when c/r:d on flop you don't need to 3-bet. Since you are in position you can wait and see the turn card and then decide if you want to call down or raise. Also you get some FE from a raise that can be useful if you get it HU with a limper.

I think the difference between overlimping and raising preflop in this situation is huge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the flop actions mean different things when you're HU or 4 handed. But a hand like K9s plays fine both HU against a limper, 4 handed in a limped pot, or 3 handed in a raised pot with the BB coming along for one more bet. It's not like we're playing a hand like A8o that much prefers to play HU, or failing to raise a hand like AJs that misses so much value by just overcalling. I really don't understand why failing to raise preflop makes a huge difference.

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

King high has a lot more showdown ability in a heads up pot as opposed to 4 handed. Havent done the math, but I would assume it even have more value 3 handed than 4 handed for obvious reasons.

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

I raise preflop here without thinking. I'd likely do the same with K8s and fold K7s.

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

Preflop, I'd raise down to K6s here. On the turn, a raise is breakeven vs a range of K4,94s,44,K9 assuming he doesnt 3 bet K4 and 94. Vs an unknown, i'd just go into call down mode because im a nit. I think its pretty close though because there are a lot of variables that can swing this to a raise.

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

I agree that i should have raised preflop.
I use some of the starting hand charts linked from the FAQ of this forum and I misremembered K9s, i was thinking it was one of those hands that fell into Raise in unopened pot otherwise overlimp.

Anyway. Results:

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP caps</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero calls</font>

River: (12.50 BB) 10[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero calls</font>

Results:
Final pot 14.5 BB

Hero shows 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
MP Shows A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I really didn't have a ton of info on MP except he hadn't shown too much aggression in the past. That is part of why i assumed he had me beat here. My apologies for not including that in the OP. Lastly, AA was not even in the range of hands i had him on. Ironically if i had raised preflop i am assuming that Villian would have 3 bet me preflop.

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

He probably would have 3bet you preflop which would have been better for you...it would have allowed you to narrow down his range some since limp/3bet is a powerful play.

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

narrow down his range after he limp/3bet and goes nuts on the flop = KK?

j/k
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

honestly

when people limp aa/kk and go nuts postflop w/ 0% chance of having the best hand, that's the bst moment for me. i just love it. it is so rewarding. nice hand. turn raise is standard because only kk/99 beat you and you turned the best card in the deck. god i love when this happens. hopefull it happens to me a lot next time i play, 12 hours from now,

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

[ QUOTE ]
narrow down his range after he limp/3bet and goes nuts on the flop = KK?

j/k
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

haha

I think you could narrow a limp/3bet from a decent player down to AA,AK,KK,QQ type hands and go from there...

If he has KK exactly...well that just sucks haha.