Table/Seat Selection Examples to Grunch
 

This thread is intended to be read/done in conjuction with this thread I just wrote on table and seat selection Ozi style. Whether you do the examples before and/or after reading that other thread and how much effort you put into your replies is your call.

So, game on! Its your turn to do some work and practice table and seat selection. Thus this thread is for the purpose of providing some real life examples for you, the reader, to work through.

Grunching of each example is preferred. Provide as much information and discussion as you think necessary.Use any of the information provided in the example. You may reassess your grunch once you’ve read other responses and you may grunch before and/or after you read that table/seat selection post.

FWIW I haven’t deliberately included any hidden traps or tricks in the examples and some will be obvious, some will be standard and some may be unclear. You have different amount of content and information available to you (no datamining at stars) in the various examples. Such is life, deal with it. Also the font sizes of any text I typed should not be intended to mean anything other than I couldn’t be bothered working out how to change default fontsize using paint.

Now, The stats that you see on screen for each seat are
Column1……..….Column2
--------………….------------
VPIP ………..…..TotalAggression
PFR…………….….NumberOfHands
ColdCall%age….W2SD% (only for P-Stars shots)

Green = Fishy, Red = Danger? Orange = Inbetween

Example 1 – “Your turn to do some table and seat assessment”

In these these scenarios, use the any relevant information provided to
a. Judge the quality of the each table
b. Grade each seat or group of seats as to how good/bad/ugly you think the seat is
c. Also consider how good seats are between tables (eg the best seat at table X may not be as good as the best 3 seats at table Y).


The intent here is NOT to say “I choose Seat X to get best position on the obvious fish. mkythxbai” because in the real world you hardly ever get seat X so you need to consider which seats you would take if offered, which ones are borderline and which just aren’t worth it…the intent instead is to get you to think about whether or not each seat is worth sitting at both in isolation and in relation to other available tables

Example 1A:
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2...tablechng1.jpg

EDIT: So I decided to go ahead and create separate posts for each example.

REPLIES TO THE FIRST POST SHOULD BE POSTED IN THIS THREAD..FOR THE OTHER THREADS, SEE BELOW
Here are the links

Example 1B - Assess the Tables/Seats

Example 2A - Select Thy Seats

Example 2B - Select Thy Seats

Goodluck

Ozi

Re: Table/Seat Selection Examples to Grunch
 

Ozi - very original!
Haven't read your guide yet I'll give it a shot...

I-A: Buffalo > Ranger > Azure. Specifically Buffalo seat 4 and Ranger seat 7 are juicy

I-B: not as much info available her but Gunlod > Rimimtto 2 > Havina

2-A: sit me down at Sirona

2-B: best option...go back to FT; but if I have to I'll sit at Topaz - actually if the tables look like this you're better off sitting at an empty table and creating a game!

Re: Table/Seat Selection Examples to Grunch
 

FWIW It has been suggested that the examples would be better separated into separate posts because having everything in the same post could give to much cross talk.

this is very valid but lets see how things go. Im probably not going to edit this post but if anyone thinks that any individual examples require a separate thread (which may not occur immediately but could later) then go ahead and start a new one by linking to this one and maybe even summarising any posts already made on that example. Myself or Wookie can get the image links as required.

Re: Table/Seat Selection Examples to Grunch
 

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW It has been suggested that the examples would be better separated into separate posts because having everything in the same post could give to much cross talk.

[/ QUOTE ]

One other point that I'd bring up would be that on a few of your FTP tables, the action is obscuring the chip counts for one or more players. Especially when we're talking about the biggest donor at the table, how many chips he has in front of him can be a huge factor in whether I sit there or not.

Re: Table/Seat Selection Examples to Grunch
 

Harv, good point...chip sizes do count and I was hoping people would use them in the examples where appropriate. Most should be viewable but if you cant see their stack (eg Seat 7 Serafin) then assume 15-20BB stack.

Re: Table/Seat Selection Examples to Grunch
 

set one

easy table to play at is Azure ... it features a couple of fish, and only has one (by stats) challenging aggressive player (the rest look like standard ABC players)

Buffalo is probably the worst ... table too many aggressive players which will get you too call down too many weakish hands (I would not play at this table)

Ranger looks OK ... has a couple of good fish and a few TAGish players ... I would only play at this table is I was able to get seat 7 or 2 (7 being the best ... two guys on your left that will make iso raising easy, and stealing blinds when given the chance, and a big tard on your right which will make cold calling OTB attractive)


on table AZURE ... i would really like seat 3 (1/ removes probably the toughest player at the table and gives me position on a couple of tards and the two guys on my left are steal targets)

seat 7 is probably the worst seat at the table ... having the big tard on your left will make raising hard (along with cbets)

on table BUFFALO ... as said (i wouldn't play at the table) - but seat 3 would be alright (two guys on the left are easy steal targets0

Re: Table/Seat Selection Examples to Grunch
 

okay, so you guys who are reading this and the other thread who arent having a crack at these examples are really not getting full value. Noobs/Lurkers, please dont be intimidated or afraid to reply....give it a gogogo. The rest of you, just do it bros.

Re: Table/Seat Selection Examples to Grunch
 

I can only read 3 of the tables but I've already confused myself with these anyway so here goes. Of the three tables I think Texas Ranger offers the most potential, Buffalo and Azure I should probably play if I can get one of the preferred seats but would want to keep an eye on the lobby for a better table to open up.

Seats I would take at Texas Ranger : 3,4,6,7 Borderline: 1,2,5,8,9 No seat looks bad enough to pass on.

On Azure I would take 1,2,9 Possibly would take 3,4,8 Would likely pass on: 5,6,7 Probably not such a good table foe a seat position but the table overall stats total is pretty good so maybe worth a try.

Buffalo: Best are 3,4,5 pass on 1,2,6,7,8,9 If I do sit at this table and it plays as hard as it looks like it might I will keep looking for a better table.

Re: Table/Seat Selection Examples to Grunch
 

question: is it possible to see the stats of people you have stats on already on stars, without sitting at the table?
Cause for me they only show up when I posted the BB.

Re: Table/Seat Selection Examples to Grunch
 

[ QUOTE ]
question: is it possible to see the stats of people you have stats on already on stars, without sitting at the table?
Cause for me they only show up when I posted the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

obviously it is possible but you need to have PAHUD setup correctly. I run the latest beta and have "Use the Memory Scanner (allows for observed hands)" selected. This doesnt mean that I can datamine observed hands but it might be the reason I can see the players at the table and hence get stats to display.

edit: Those settings are under PokerSites->Pokerstars. Actually Im using v1.17.8 beta and I also have the handhistory directory where stars writes hands in the "Hand History Files Directories" box (youll need to temporarily change to "Use HAnd History Files" option to be able to add folders to this box. goodluck.

Re: Table/Seat Selection Examples to Grunch
 

I just downloaded that version but I cant see that option anywhere. Help me out please [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Table/Seat Selection Examples to Grunch
 

Okay, I'm going to give this a shot. I obviously have read some of the responses in the thread already, but I purposely skipped over any which tried to answer the initial question. So it still qualifies as a grunch. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Example 1a
<u>Table Quality</u>

Table Texas Ranger is a good table; on a scale of 1-10 (10 being fishiest), I'd give it a solid 6.5. There are two obvious donors seated, seats 1 &amp; 6. Seat 1 is running short on chips, but seat 6 has plenty of cash left to lose (which probably means that he's running hot, &amp; therefore apt to play even looser than usual). Seat 6 also looks mad aggressive both pre &amp; postflop, although if he is running hot then our sample size is small enough that we can't rely on that read. Seats 2, 4, &amp; 9 also look very exploitable, although over small samples. Of the "known" players at the table, Seat 5 is the only one that I'd worry about--the rest are either too tight, too passive, or both. We should be able to get a pretty good general read on Seat 7 quickly, if seat 6 is as LAG as he appears. The lobby stats don't look quite as good as the individual numbers &amp; there's only 1 person in the waiting list, which are both pluses; if seat 1 wasn't so short I'd give this table a higher score.

Table Buffalo looks like a very good game. Seat 8 is going to be the major donor, and looks like your standard loose/passive payoff station. Seat 3 is both way loose &amp; way aggressive, but short-stacked. Seat 7 looks pretty LAG over the sample size so far, and combined with having a calling station directly behind him should make for some big pots. Seats 1 &amp; 2 also look loose &amp; exploitable, though over small sample sizes (seat 8's sample size is also small, but loose/passives show up very quickly stats-wise). The one downside, besides seat 3 being short, is that there are 4 potentially dangerous players already seated: seats 4, 5, 6, and 9. Overall I'd give this table a 7.5.

Table Azure looks the best in the lobby, but looks like it's about played out based on individual numbers. Seats 2 &amp; 8 still look like donors, but the rest of the table has filled with TAGs (and one decent-looking sLAG in seat 3). The waiting list also has 2 players in it, and the odds are very good that the first two seats to open up with be the donors. I'd go ahead &amp; waitlist this one as well, but expect to pass when a seat opens up--I'd give it a 5 overall.

<u>Individual seats</u>
At table Azure, seats 3 &amp; 9 would both be workable, assuming the donors stay put. If I had to, I could make do with seat 1 as well. I don't particularly like seats 4-7, as the sLAG in seat 3 is likely to be isolating frequently on the loosey in seat 2. If I could teleport myself directly into the game in any seat I choose, it would be seat 3 (for obvious reasons). Again, though, I'm not all that enamored with this table in general, so I'd only give seat 3 a rating of 7.

On Table Buffalo, I'd be willing to take any seat there. Ideally, I would love to have seat 9--this gives me ideal position on the loosest player at the table, and should also allow me to iso-3bet behind seat 7's loose raises (and seat 8's coldcalls). Seat 4 would give me the best position on all the loose players at the table, but seat 3 is likely to bust out soon. Some people might give seat 4 a higher rating because you have tight players on your left, but as loose as this table is you aren't going to see that many blind stealing opportunities anyway, and I can handle myself in steal situations against loose or semi-loose players anyhow. If I can't have seat 9, I'd settle for 1 or even 2 (although I'd like the player in 2 to stay put for a while). I would give seat 9 a very solid 9 rating, with seat 1 about an 8 &amp; seat 2 7.5. But any seat on this table is scoring at least a 6, except maybe seat 7.

Table Texas Ranger (I did these backwards to force myself to rethink each one), I would most like to grab seat 8. This is because seat 7 is an unknown (and most unknowns aren't that good), seat 6 is the major donor, and seat 5 appears to be the most dangerous player at the table...I want position on 5 &amp; 6 for sure. I'm not too worried about seat 1 because, again, he's probably busting soon. I'd gladly "settle" for seat 7 as well, because I still get position on those two and on the off chance that it's folded to me in the SB, seat 8 will probably give his big blind away (you really need to add "Fold BB to steal" to your HUD stats). I absotively do not want seat 4, and seat 3 don't look too hot either. Any other seat at the table I could deal with (though if seat 6 leaves then the table looks much, much worse). I'd give seat 8 an 8.5, with seat 7 right behind as an 8.

<u>Overall</u>
Should be pretty easy to figure out by reading the paragraphs above. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I'd most like to find myself in Seat 9 on Buffalo, then seat 8 on Texas Ranger, then either seat 7 on TR or seat 1 on B. I would avoid seat 4 on TR like the plague, and likely ditch that table all together if seat 6 leaves. I don't much want a seat on Azure, either, but as long as only TAGs leave I could deal with seat 3 or 9 there.

Re: Table/Seat Selection Examples to Grunch
 

well I gotta say Im suprised that these examples havent generated the grunches I thought they would....particularly from noobs and intermediates. perhaps its just all too easy to read and absorb but not put ones thoughts out there? perhaps they are too tricky, particularly 2A and 2B?

So you tell, me, whats up bros?

Re: Table/Seat Selection Examples to Grunch
 

[ QUOTE ]

So you tell, me, whats up bros?

[/ QUOTE ]
I grunched and thought it was a good post/idea. But after scanning a few of the tables, it got somewhat repetitive and didn't require a lot of deep thinking to be honest. Plus, looking at all the tables and large pictures did make it seem more intimidating/time consuming that it actually was.

Re: Table/Seat Selection Examples to Grunch
 

Aussie,

please don't be disheartened. Some of the best posts generate the least amount of attention. The omgAApewpew hands seem to act like shiny jingly objects drawing everyone's attention. Some folks want quick easy answers to winning instead of high quality in-depth do what it takes to win posts.

Please continue with these Aussie, even if its for your own benefit.

Re: Table/Seat Selection Examples to Grunch
 

i dont play much limit anymore but just open up tables and look for limping and look for showdowns with hands that you think shouldn't be at showdown. then sitdown. if not look at some other tables.

Re: Table/Seat Selection Examples to Grunch
 

Posting my thoughts; I'd be curious what others (you too, Aussie!) have to think since this thread has been around a while and hasn't garnered many responses.

Buffalo looks like the best table of the three. Followed by Azure and then Ranger.

At Buffalo, any seat except 6 looks great to me! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Seat 4 is probably best, but--really--practically any seat other than 6 will give me position on at least one nice and loose player.

At Azure, I think seat 3 is best (gives me position on the loosest player and has the tighties to my left for stealing purposes). Seats 4, 9, 1, and 5 all look good, too, though [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

At Ranger, seat 2 looks best to me, followed closely by 7. I'd take seats 3, 8, 4, and 9, too [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Table/Seat Selection Examples to Grunch
 

Hmm, having gone through and compared my post to others, it appears that there's little consensus among those people who have posted here. It seems like there's ample ground for discussion among posters about which tables/seats are, indeed, best. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Table/Seat Selection Examples to Grunch
 

Its been a while since read these examples or the replies so Ill grunch them. lol.

Texas Ranger
Lobby stats are ok but not great with players to pot and pot size about 5.5BB on average.

This table is interesting and yet typical of many tables in the the 4 players I want position on are spread around. The 2 main guys I want position on are 1, 6 with 2 and 4 also being targets. Seat 2 may also be a tiltmonkey as evident by chat. The players that I dont mind having to my left are 3, 8 and to a less degree 5 and 9.

Seat 3 is my seat of choice but Ill also take 2, 4, 5 and 6 if offered. Note that Seat 1 and 2 have green cold call numbers which could be a low sample size but for guys with those stats I expect alot of cold calls so its probably about right. Seat 7 is okay as if gives us position on 6 however 1 and 2 are probably going to get in the way enough to make us have to pick our spots to attack.

Really the only seats that I probably dont want are 8 and 9 because Ill be OOP versus 1 and 2. All in all youll probably be looking to play solid poker at this table and win from whoever enters the pot with you out of 1, 2, 4 and 6.

Buffalo
Great table as evident by lobby status. 3 and 8 are our main targets but we must also have 2 and 7 in our sights as well. Seat 1 seems aggro but has a low sample size. watch him.

My preferred seats here are 9 and 4 but Ill also take 1 and 2...sometimes its not possible to get position on all our targets.

honestly, this table is pretty good so just able any seat is profitable, there is no really perfect seat due to where the targets are sitting relative to each other but theris a bank of 3 tighties in 4 -&gt; 6 . Seat 6 and 7 are the probably the worst ones because we will basically ahve to make hands to beat seat 8 and expect seat 7 to be laggy. Theres some post flop aggro monkeys at this table so expect lots of betting and raising.

Azure
This table looks pretty good in the lobby. Seat 3 is my prefferred seat of choice as it gives us perfect position on Seat 2 as well as reasonable position on Seats 8 and 9 but it also is good beccause Seats 4 through 6 are pretty weak tight postflop taggy seats (Aggro factors not that high for a decent tag) so should let us isolate the fish alot and if they play back we'll have a fair idea where we are at. Seats 7, 6 and to a less degree 5 are the seats I dont want. Even though we'd have Seat 2 in the same half of the table as us we have a bigger problem in that Seats 8 and 9 are going to make it expensive for hero to see cheap flops plus Seats 3 4 and 5 are going to make it 2 bets to us before we act alot of the time.

One good thing about Azure complare to Buffalo is that I'd expect less tough spots because the stats of tight players arent that threatening. If I had a choice between playing a 18/8/1.7 or a 23/11/2.1 Ill play the 18/8 guy thankyouverymuch.

note: I wrote this reply without considering stack sizes....

Re: Table/Seat Selection Examples to Grunch
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm, having gone through and compared my post to others, it appears that there's little consensus among those people who have posted here. It seems like there's ample ground for discussion among posters about which tables/seats are, indeed, best

[/ QUOTE ]

I think some of it just personal taste and some of the differences stem from what information given people are using to judge the tables seats. I havent read all replies in detail recently but there should be a theme as to which tables/seats are best...and cos people are saying WHY they like a table/seat then that really helps the though process [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

ill try and reply to the other examples later.

Re: Table/Seat Selection Examples to Grunch
 

I voted weaksauce... because to be honest, sleepy and hungry are both forms of weaksauce.

Re: Table/Seat Selection Examples to Grunch
 

a 'keep me alive post vbulletin switch' bump