Is a raise allowed here? Interesting hand scenario
 

I was playing at my local poker club the other month and I was wondering if this (stupid!?) rule applies also in AC and Vegas.

Scenario:

I have KK UTG in a very loose 1-2 NL game. I limp and thena Decent player makes it $15 to go (standard). Next some idiot goes all-in for $20 total with QJ off suit (boo yah!) and then 3! people proceed to call $20.

I moved all-in here with KK expecting to scoop a $100 pot but I was told that I can't raise the $20 all-in since His raise didn't double the bet.

$15 to $20 isn't a double.

Needless to say the flop came 678 and I didn't win the hand against that field.

Does this same rule apply in AC and Vegas?

Re: Is a raise allowed here? Interesting hand scenario
 

That's completely retarded, assuming you posted the action correctly. You limped and then got raised, you certainly have action open and can reraise the guy who made it $15. The guy who's action is closed is the $15 raiser, if you just call he can't repump it, he can only call the extra $5. But if anyone told you that you can't reraise, they either completely misunderstood the action, or need to be shot.

Re: Is a raise allowed here? Interesting hand scenario
 

Here is the action:

Hero UTG: Limp KK for $2

Decent UTG+2: Raise to $15

Mid-position: Goes all-in for $20

3 people in Late position call $20.

I try to go all-in. Dealer says I cannot as $20 all-in didn't double the $15 bet (Or $2 into $15 bet).

I think it's a stupid rule and it's been used before at that club too.

Is this same rule used at AC and Vegas?

Re: Is a raise allowed here? Interesting hand scenario
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here is the action:

Hero UTG: Limp KK for $2

Decent UTG+2: Raise to $15

Mid-position: Goes all-in for $20

3 people in Late position call $20.

I try to go all-in. Dealer says I cannot as $20 all-in didn't double the $15 bet (Or $2 into $15 bet).

I think it's a stupid rule and it's been used before at that club too.

Is this same rule used at AC and Vegas?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dealer's and incompetent floor often get this wrong. Had you just called the $20 allin "Decent UTG+2" would only be able to call (or fold of course). IOW the small allin raise doesn't reopen the betting for HIS complete raise. But you are essentially wanting to limp-reraise the first real raise (by UTG+2). That's OK.

I think this stupidity gets mixed in with something I hear often - "you can't check-raise an allin player" (when others aren't allin). Sometimes you can and sometimes you can't; what matters is if there is a complete bet by someone who hasn't acted yet. If there is you can certainly check-raise (even if someone is allin).

~ Rick

Re: Is a raise allowed here? Interesting hand scenario
 

"But you are essentially wanting to limp-reraise the first real raise (by UTG+2). That's OK."

That's what I thought Rick.


This has to be the stupidest rule enforced in NL Cash.

Re: Is a raise allowed here? Interesting hand scenario
 

I can easily you show you how wrong your scenario is.

Say for simplicity there are three players with cards. You limp for $2, Player 2 raises to $15 and Player 3 folds. It's now back to you. Can you raise? Of course you can, that's what you were hoping for. It's in all the poker books. Limp with AA, wait for a raise behind you and then come over the top. It's a classic trap. (Let's just forget strategy right now about using this play we're discussing rules here).

Alright, let's go through a different betting sequence. You limp for $2. Player 2 raises to $15, Player 3 calls $15. Now back to you, can you raise? Yes. Say player 3 raised it to $50. Can you raise? Yes. Say Player 3 had only $20 and pushed it all in (like your scenario). Tell me how this now prevents Player 1 from raising? It defies common sense.

Edit: Stupid explanation #2. Player 3 has $20 but for some reason he just calls the $15 raise now allowing Player 1 to raise all-in and Player 3 now puts his final $5 into the pot.

Re: Is a raise allowed here? Interesting hand scenario
 

the dealer/floor clearly got the ruling wrong. since you weren't the original raiser, you should have the option to re-raise. if you smooth-called, then the original raiser would not have the option to raise.

Re: Is a raise allowed here? Interesting hand scenario
 

Unfortunately, dealers and floor remember (or were taught)

Condensed Version of Rule:
If player X goes all-in for an amount less than a full raise (or half bet, depending on House rules and NL vs Limit), nobody can re-raise.

A Better Version:
If player X goes all-in for an amount less than a full raise (or half bet, depending on House rules and NL vs Limit), everybody (with enough chips) has to call him to continue in the hand. To see if somebody can re-raise, ignore the all-in player's bet.


PlayerA limps
PlayerB legal raise
PlayerC goes all in for less than a re-raise
PlayerD calls
PlayerE calls
PlayerF calls

Back to PlayerA.
If you ignore PlayerC, it is clear that PlayerA can raise, since he was raised by PlayerB.

If PlayerA now just calls, then it is back to PlayerB.
If you ignore PlayerC, then it is clear that PlayerB cannot raise, since nobody raised him.

Re: Is a raise allowed here? Interesting hand scenario
 

Wow

That stupidity cost me $100.

Great explanation PantsonFire, may the poker gods shine on you.

Re: Is a raise allowed here? Interesting hand scenario
 

That is a terrible ruling. I hope you racked up and left without giving them another dime in rake (though, if you're like me, you probably don't have a choice as to where to play). Good luck in the future.