Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

Bullpucky happens. I've had the same thing happen to me. If the dealer is just a schmuck who doesn't give a damn about poker, who sits around, waiting to get tipped, don't tip for a while.

If there were extenuating circumstances (floor distracting them, hidden cards, quiet verbal bet) then consider is this dealer conscientious, careful and always trying to improve? If so, and it was purely an accident, let them slide.

I have ways to ensure all action is complete before I burn and turn, thus I've only ever done this twice, both times with someone hiding their cards. Some dealers do this virtually every day. Some people, like me, care about poker. Some don't, they just wanna get tipped.

Spread your tip money around according to who deserves it. But remember, dealers are human, even the best make mistakes occasionally. Plus, it's much much harder than it looks.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

I'm reading these b.s. threads too much lately......
Dude if you don't tip then it's your business.

If you are the "professional" that you claim to be please let me ask you one question.
Why aren't you handling the situation like a professional?

By the way moderator---this should be locked down....as stated above.
Most of you are the ones who like to read all the flaming anyway but that's another post all in itself.
Many props to Al JR who has the right idea.
I'd love to sit in your game any day.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

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But it can ONLY come on the river. "1 out twice" is better then "1 out once".

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Yeah, well, crap happens. It's the best solution for a bad situation.

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The card room's procedure is what is retarded, if I read it correctly.

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The card room's procedure is absolutely standard almost everywhere.

I would have no problem just reshuffling entirely, but the reason you put out the woulda-been river as the new turn is to placate the superstitious, of whom there are countless in a cardroom. Yes, knowledge of the card does change things somewhat, but oh well, whaddaya gonna do. Chances are equal that it'd hurt or help everybody involved.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have ways to ensure all action is complete before I burn and turn, thus I've only ever done this twice, both times with someone hiding their cards. Some dealers do this virtually every day. Some people, like me, care about poker. Some don't, they just wanna get tipped.

Spread your tip money around according to who deserves it. But remember, dealers are human, even the best make mistakes occasionally. Plus, it's much much harder than it looks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good points Al.

I usually have to stop a dealer from burning and turning too early about twice a month. If I'm acting last the dealer usually isn't paying attention since I tend to make my checks and bets in a straight-forward manner. At the same time I won't act out of turn so sometimes the dealer is in a hurry to move the game along and assumes I checked the button before the action is really on me. So unfortunately I have to be ready to call "time" with vehemence in order to protect my action.

Note that acting last when its checked to the type of player who doesn't make his action clear opens up a possible angle. With a sloppy dealer an unethical player can do nothing when the action is on him and maybe the dealer thinks he checked and will burn and turn. If the button gets the card he wants he says nothing. If he doesn't he can say "hey, I didn't act" and call for a ruling. He'll usually get another chance at a card he wants (or avoid a card he doesn't want).

~ Rick

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

Flytrap did the dealer rap the table, if the dealer did and you didn't stop the dealer you should blame yourself. This is a common dealer mistake. Players can protect the game by stopping the dealer. All dealers should tap the table before dealing the next card. It gives the player enough time to stop the dealer. You sound like a newbie, this is gonna happen over and over again. Sometimes it will hurt you and sometimes it will help you. Get used to it.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

besides slowing the game down, I would have no complaint if the dealer did this every single time I was in a pot. It doesn't give you a disadvantage, so who cares?

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

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Here's a story about how a dealer actually cost me $200:

I make a flush on a board of 2d3c5d4sTd. The pot is $100 I'm OTB and shove for $200. Guy across the table thinks for a while and finally says "call" but he moves his cards forward slightly (there was another player left to act). Within a second the dealer has his cards in the muck. The guy explains that he had a 6, he said call, blah, blah, blah. He is pissed and starts going off on the dealer. Not only did I tip him, but I showed my the other player my flush.

As a poker professional you should understand that things like this happen. If you can't stand dealer errors try playing online.

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This one confuses me.
If the player said call then isn't it possible to retrieve the cards and hold him to that call?
I guess if he insta-mucked them and scooped up the board cards, etc it would be too late to do anything and perhaps that's what happened

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's a story about how a dealer actually cost me $200:

I make a flush on a board of 2d3c5d4sTd. The pot is $100 I'm OTB and shove for $200. Guy across the table thinks for a while and finally says "call" but he moves his cards forward slightly (there was another player left to act). Within a second the dealer has his cards in the muck. The guy explains that he had a 6, he said call, blah, blah, blah. He is pissed and starts going off on the dealer. Not only did I tip him, but I showed my the other player my flush.

As a poker professional you should understand that things like this happen. If you can't stand dealer errors try playing online.

[/ QUOTE ]


This one confuses me.
If the player said call then isn't it possible to retrieve the cards and hold him to that call?
I guess if he insta-mucked them and scooped up the board cards, etc it would be too late to do anything and perhaps that's what happened

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If the dealer gets his hands on the cards they should be in the muck in under a second.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

There is a fun sort of Destiny belief in many gamblers (note I do not include professional poker players in this group). I hear it loudest with the Blackjack players. They'll complain about a player at the table who doesn't know what he's doing. Hitting when he should be passing or passing when he should be hitting. This in turn screws up the order the cards are supposed to come out in or would have come out in and screws up the game and causes everyone to lose.

Doyle says all the great players have 'some gamble' to em. When he says that I feel like he is talking about the same mentality, that kind of destiny in gambling mentality?

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

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whoever says they wouldn't be pissed off is lying

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This is totally untrue.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

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I don't care about EV, I'm talking about dealer accountability. In this poker room, tips are pooled, so motivation for the dealers to do well is lacking. Should they not be punished in some way for their ineptitude?

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Not really. It was an honest mistake, and a 0 EV one. Are you perfect at your job? What you call "ineptitude" is not what I call it. If this dealer constantly makes mistakes then he should be fired. Otherwise, it's just another day.

I do agree that pooling tips is a very bad idea though.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

Similar thing happened, where my opponent caught QUADS to beat my three eights. Security was called...#$??!!##

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If the dealer had been paying attention, and doing their job, I win. Thoughts?

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Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's a story about how a dealer actually cost me $200:

I make a flush on a board of 2d3c5d4sTd. The pot is $100 I'm OTB and shove for $200. Guy across the table thinks for a while and finally says "call" but he moves his cards forward slightly (there was another player left to act). Within a second the dealer has his cards in the muck. The guy explains that he had a 6, he said call, blah, blah, blah. He is pissed and starts going off on the dealer. Not only did I tip him, but I showed my the other player my flush.

As a poker professional you should understand that things like this happen. If you can't stand dealer errors try playing online.

[/ QUOTE ]


This one confuses me.
If the player said call then isn't it possible to retrieve the cards and hold him to that call?
I guess if he insta-mucked them and scooped up the board cards, etc it would be too late to do anything and perhaps that's what happened

[/ QUOTE ]
They might have been retrievable, but they were in the muck.

Also there was another player left to act and I figured there was a better chance of getting him to call than reversing the muck.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

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whoever says they wouldn't be pissed off is lying

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This is totally untrue.

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I think its true. Of course I'd be pissed off, I just lost $1800. I know I'd have to stand up and take a walk around the casino for an orbit or two, but I wouldn't take it out on the dealer because I'm quite willing to accept that mistakes happen. I'm also aware that these types of mistakes will even out in the long run.

If its a chronic problem I'd be much less forgiving and that dealer probably wouldn't get tipped from me for awhile.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

As stated previously multiple times, this post would not exist if you were the one that won the $1800 pot.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

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[ QUOTE ]
whoever says they wouldn't be pissed off is lying

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This is totally untrue.

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I'm convinced that most dealers feel worse about mistakes like this than I do. When a dealer (particularly one I know reasonably well) has an oops like this and it costs me a pot, they usually get a whipped puppydog look and can't express how sorry they are adamantly enough.

Yeah, I sometimes have that instantaneous "crap that cost me" response but in seconds I remember "next time it'll work out the other way--it all evens out in the end" and I'm over it.

Dealers certainly can do things that can keep me annoyed for a while. Attitude problems, say, like actually REFUSING to call the floor proclaiming "I know the rule, we don't need the floor" and then doing something irreversible and wrong that gives an opponent an edge.

But honest oopses I can shed from my mind pretty quickly.
Anybody who thinks everybody will be pissed over such a thing is suffering from empathic failure.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
whoever says they wouldn't be pissed off is lying

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This is totally untrue.

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Anybody who thinks everybody will be pissed over such a thing is suffering from empathic failure.

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nicely said

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

OP,

Better dealers deserve better tips. If a dealer makes mistakes, he deserves less tips. So by making this mistake, you are certinaly justified in withholding some tips from the dealers.

However, the fact that you lost $1800 should have no bearing on your withholding tips. If you lost $1 or you lost $1,000,000; it doesn't matter. The dealer made a mistake. Decide how much the mistake is worth and punish the dealer accordingly.

Withholding $1800 in tips specifically because the dealer's mistake caused you to lose $1800 doesn't make any sense. Withholding $1800 because you feel the mistake is worth $1800, now that makes sense.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

in my local indian cardroom, a dealer made a $500 mistake in one of the NL games, and the player who was on the losing end told the General Manager of the cardroom he was going to report it to the gaming commission (exact same situation; dealer mistake, early burn and turn on river) and the Cardroom gave him his money back

I'd say you make an appointment with the GM of Poker/table games, tell them you plan to press the issue with the NVGC and would like to give them a chance to compensate you first

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
in my local indian cardroom, a dealer made a $500 mistake in one of the NL games, and the player who was on the losing end told the General Manager of the cardroom he was going to report it to the gaming commission (exact same situation; dealer mistake, early burn and turn on river) and the Cardroom gave him his money back

I'd say you make an appointment with the GM of Poker/table games, tell them you plan to press the issue with the NVGC and would like to give them a chance to compensate you first



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I am guessing he played some other games in the casino games. It was handled exactly right. Generally if someone is a good customer I will buy them dinner or a sandwich if something like this happens. If they come up demanding stuff or asking what I was going to do to make up for it I explain that to them that they were not screwed and (if the burn and turn was on the river) that their chances were actually improved by the premature card because they know the card can come instead of being in the muck (it seems like the complainer is always someone that was drawing and missed).

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
in my local indian cardroom, a dealer made a $500 mistake in one of the NL games, and the player who was on the losing end told the General Manager of the cardroom he was going to report it to the gaming commission (exact same situation; dealer mistake, early burn and turn on river) and the Cardroom gave him his money back

I'd say you make an appointment with the GM of Poker/table games, tell them you plan to press the issue with the NVGC and would like to give them a chance to compensate you first



[/ QUOTE ]

Wonderful idea. Turn into "That Guy" who threatens to go to the authorities whenever there is an incident that doesn't go his way. Especially when THE INCIDENT WAS HANDLED CORRECTLY. Great idea.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

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As a pro, you know it cuts both ways. If the mistake had gone the other way, would you decide to tip off the $1800 by tipping double for 25 weeks?



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Answer the above quote live retard "pro"

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

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When was the last time you heard of an airline pilot having to reimburse everyone for an airplane crash?


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The pilot is usually dead.

And the airlines DO pay out a settlement to the survivors and families.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
OP,

Better dealers deserve better tips. If a dealer makes mistakes, he deserves less tips. So by making this mistake, you are certinaly justified in withholding some tips from the dealers..

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QFT.

If the dealer made the mistake because they are not paying attention to the game, then withholding tips is perfectly fine.

The AMOUNT you withhold is something you might determine outside of the size of the loss that resulted from the error.


When a dealer is not paying attention and doing their job, they don't deserve a tip. Burning and turning before action is complete is one of the worst errors a dealer can make, not because it can cost you the pot, but because it means the dealer is NOT PAYING ATTENTION.

This deserves to be punished by withholding tips.

If you are playing TAG, you might win one or two hands each time a particular dealer is sitting at your table. Even if you withheld tips for a year, and the dealer was at your table once a day, you're still only talking a few hundred dollars.

If the dealer is having a bad day, and otherwise good, then withholding for a year is not justified - but withholding for a day probably is.

If the dealer is bad, and makes these mistakes often, then withhold tips forever, and this is perfectly fine.


AB