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xxThe_Lebowskixx 10-12-2007 01:32 PM

why does this forum care so much about religion
 
I debate religion sometimes and my main motive is usually to be mean. I cannot think of another subject where I can pawn someone to a ridiculous extent as much as religion. Its like arguing with a child who thinks Santa Clause exists. People who believe in Christianity aren't going to change their mind when you present logic reasoning. If they were interested in logical reasoning, they wouldn't be Christians. If person makes it past the age of eight-teen and there aren't already huge doubts in their mind of Jesus's existence, there is nothing you can do.

So shouldn't we find something more interesting to discuss regardless of the ego boost it gives us to rip the zealots?

PLOlover 10-12-2007 01:34 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
well as I have posted before, it is the foundation of our anglosaxon legal system.

I mean the bible.

pokervintage 10-12-2007 01:35 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
Math and science are not arguable thus the interest in religion.

pokervintage

Nielsio 10-12-2007 01:35 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
My thoughts regarding just about everything have changed drastically between the age of 20 and 25.

luckyme 10-12-2007 01:47 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
Theism is a problem in our world. Understanding how the mind of a theist works may allow us to deal more effectively with it. Even if it's just a matter of learning how to compromise with them to lessen the impact.

It's not a matter of winning converts from the committed, it's learning the attractions it has for the non-committed so the alternative of taking a rational approach to life is more open to them. What psychological need is being met by religion that can be addressed without the need to take on superstition and myth and how to provide something in it's place.

You're likely right about the 18ish age as getting ingrained, but it varies with the person and the depth of indoctrination. They're getting past the most questioning time of their life by then and if they haven't any doubts of any strength they're not likely to unless they have an adverse reaction to a bad experience. Late defection does occur but it'd be foolish to expect much turnover there.

luckyme

luckyme 10-12-2007 01:50 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
Math and science are not arguable thus the interest in religion.

pokervintage

[/ QUOTE ]

Science isn't arguable?
Which scientific position today is not open to question? The edges are even of interest to a layman.

luckyme

pokervintage 10-12-2007 01:52 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
Theism is a problem in our world.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? Someone believing in God is a problem for you? LoL.

pokervintage

tame_deuces 10-12-2007 01:57 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Math and science are not arguable thus the interest in religion.

pokervintage

[/ QUOTE ]

Science isn't arguable?
Which scientific position today is not open to question? The edges are even of interest to a layman.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

One might even say that science _being_ arguable makes it what it is.

luckyme 10-12-2007 02:03 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Theism is a problem in our world.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? Someone believing in God is a problem for you? LoL.

pokervintage

[/ QUOTE ]

My cousin is gay. My aunts neighbor was in the tower. My neighbors cousin was raped and needs an abortion. My best friends sister-in-law's niece has aids in africa. My ....

Yep. It's a problem for me. How personal does it have to be before it can be deemed a problem? I'm not a gay pregnant person with aids in africa if that's what you're wondering.
( I made up the other stuff).

luckyme

tame_deuces 10-12-2007 02:04 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Theism is a problem in our world.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? Someone believing in God is a problem for you? LoL.

pokervintage

[/ QUOTE ]

Belief in god is one thing, and alone it isn't a problem. Theistic doctrine and the actions that follow from them are big problems. Technology, medicine, philosophy and law are only a few of the fields which have often been held back by this.

Metric 10-12-2007 02:09 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
An excellent question. I don't mind discussing it once in a while, but Jesus. Start a thread about a non-trivial scientific idea and it stands an excellent chance of being buried in minutes by God-talk.

pokervintage 10-12-2007 02:12 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
Stalin's Soviet union, a godless country, routinely tortured and murdered for whatever reason they deemed necessary. I could go on with many examples of what is wrong with atheism. Religion is not the problem. Some religions say "Love your brother as you would yourself". Following that doctrine is not a problem. Human beings have issues whether they believe in God or not. Not all religions have a "problem" with Gays. Come on, don't blame religion, blame the individuals and their actions.

pokervintage

luckyme 10-12-2007 02:18 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
Belief in god is one thing, and alone it isn't a problem. Theistic doctrine and the actions that follow from them are big problems. Technology, medicine, philosophy and law are only a few of the fields which have often been held back by this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Theist would like to claim some historical significance in some of those fields. That's like Genghis Khan wanting credit for unifying the Steppes.

Even if there were some merit to the claim historically ( other than accident of place/time), the question would be, "what have you done for me lately."

The major advances to thought/study came when religion was in recession, but it's a moot point in today's world anyway.

luckyme

kurto 10-12-2007 02:29 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
Stalin's Soviet union, a godless country, routinely tortured and murdered for whatever reason they deemed necessary. I could go on with many examples of what is wrong with atheism.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a logical fallacy to equate Stalin's method of rule with Atheism. Believers have been guilty of similar atrocities in the name of their faith.

Technically, you haven't shown a single example of what's wrong with atheism.

gumpzilla 10-12-2007 02:31 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
An excellent question. I don't mind discussing it once in a while, but Jesus. Start a thread about a non-trivial scientific idea and it stands an excellent chance of being buried in minutes by God-talk.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the problem is that it's the Internet, and everybody is qualified to loudly hate on religion. But having discussions about science requires more knowledge and interest, so it falls by the wayside, for the most part.

luckyme 10-12-2007 02:33 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
I could go on with many examples of what is wrong with atheism.

[/ QUOTE ]

Go on? I'll settle for the first one.

luckyme

pokervintage 10-12-2007 02:35 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
One might even say that science _being_ arguable makes it what it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point is...Try and make a point to a scientist and he will ask for rigorous proof. Not arguable diatribes.

pokervintage

pokervintage 10-12-2007 02:39 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
Technically, you haven't shown a single example of what's wrong with atheism.

[/ QUOTE ]

My example of the Soviet Union equates very well with luckyme blaming religion because of what happened to his cousin.

pokervintage

luckyme 10-12-2007 02:41 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One might even say that science _being_ arguable makes it what it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point is...Try and make a point to a scientist and he will ask for rigorous proof. Not arguable diatribes.

pokervintage

[/ QUOTE ]

Proof is harder to get in these days of raw material costs.

luckyme

tame_deuces 10-12-2007 02:42 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One might even say that science _being_ arguable makes it what it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point is...Try and make a point to a scientist and he will ask for rigorous proof. Not arguable diatribes.

pokervintage

[/ QUOTE ]

It is actually quite amazing how much science is based not on rigorous proof, but sufficient proof - or probable proof.

And actually in a few cases you have examples where it is based on flawed proof, improbable proof and sometimes bad proof that you expect will get better (the hubble constant is a classic example of the last one).

It doesn't mean these cases are bad per se, sometimes it is just necessary to have somewhere to start with and at other times the models you get will have good predictive value still.

The important thing is that science is (ideally) in the cases where these things are done, aware of it in method. Iow. that the scientists know what they are using and why. This is the 'scientific' approach that is so important.

A simple analogy would be for instance if you were go shopping, and you want strawberries. But it is out of season so you don't remember how much they are. You assume they will be something along the lines of what they cost last winter + the normal increase in price. It isn't foolproof, not does it necessarily exact - but until you can expand on your knowledge (was it a good harvest/bad harvest, has there been strikes, is strawberries popular or not this year, how does the prize differ from store to store etc.) it it is 'good enough' and the predictive value is good.

Matt R. 10-12-2007 02:51 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
It is hilarious how you guys eat up obvious troll attempts by Lebowski. He, himself, has started religious threads in the past. Further, he criticizes the absence of logical reasoning in all Christians, when his previous threads attempting to criticize Christianity were either utterly devoid of logic, or whatever logic he attempted to include was completely dismantled in the thread.

How are these kinds of posts/threads allowed to remain in SMP? Why are obvious trolls like Lebowski not banned? This thread will obviously blow up into a 10+ page circle jerk about how lolz stupid Christians are and how uber awesome genius all atheists are.

Anyways, carry on!

tpir 10-12-2007 02:55 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
Stalin's Soviet union, a godless country, routinely tortured and murdered for whatever reason they deemed necessary. I could go on with many examples of what is wrong with atheism.

[/ QUOTE ]
People acting cruelly and irrationally in a godless country is not a case for atheism being wrong. Atheism promotes neither torture nor murder, regardless of what implicit ideals you try to draw from a disbelief in God. I have my doubts that you could "go on" with *any* examples. Care to try?


[ QUOTE ]
Religion is not the problem.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. Faith-based religion is the real enemy. Only through faith are people allowed to let their biases and made-up stories supercede reason.

pokervintage 10-12-2007 03:05 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
The important thing is that science is (ideally) in the cases where these things are done, aware of it in method. Iow. that the scientists know what they are using and why. This is the 'scientific' approach that is so important.


[/ QUOTE ]

O.K. requiring "rigorous proof" might be a stretch but come on you get the idea.

pokervintaage

pokervintage 10-12-2007 03:08 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
It is hilarious how you guys eat up obvious troll attempts by Lebowski.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are the one that is hilarious. People respond here because they are interested in the subject. Who cares why or who started the thread?

pokervintage

Matt R. 10-12-2007 03:13 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
oh come on.

You can't see the irony in a thread with the title "why does this forum care so much about religion", created by someone who has created several religious threads in the past? Followed by posts leading into RELIGIOUS DEBATE?

Re-read the OP. Do you think it honestly has any potential to lead into any worthwhile discussion on science, math, or philosophy? Or do you think it's simply a lead in attempt so that the atheists on here can gather together and pat each other on the back about how they stuck it to those dumb Christians?

xxThe_Lebowskixx 10-12-2007 03:16 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
he criticizes the absence of logical reasoning in all Christians, when his previous threads attempting to criticize Christianity were either utterly devoid of logic, or whatever logic he attempted to include was completely dismantled in the thread.


[/ QUOTE ]
haha link?

Subfallen 10-12-2007 03:21 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
KKF -

He's probably talking about this thread, which he and BTIrish deemed "illogical" because you obviously don't agree with the Christian premise that people fundamentally deserve to be tortured forever.

Matt R. 10-12-2007 03:22 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
haha, here !

Jeez, why does this forum care so much about religion. I can't believe all these threads people start, ya know?

pokervintage 10-12-2007 03:25 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
Atheism promotes neither torture nor murder

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course not. Not yet. But wait until the first Atheist Docrine is written and see what happens.

I might claim that the reason that the soviet union, headed by an Atheist, tortured and murdered so many, some of whom did believe in God, was because Stalin did not believe in God and didn't want anyone else too because he found religion dangerous so he murdered those that believed. I might claim this, I can't prove this, even though there is probably some truth to it, but you can't disprove it. I might claim the same thing goes on in China. I can't prove the motivation of the Chinese leaders for supressing human rights. But it certainly isn't because they believe in God.

Atheism can be blamed for the actions of atheists that kill. They don't necessarily need a doctrine to follow. They may have decided in their own mine that atheism is there badge to do as they please.


O.K I said that I could show lots of examples. I was wrong. Sue me.

pokervintage.

Matt R. 10-12-2007 03:26 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
KKF -

He's probably talking about this thread, which he and BTIrish deemed "illogical" because you obviously don't agree with the Christian premise that people fundamentally deserve to be tortured forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dear Subfallen,
I didn't deem it illogical. I simply pointed out that all assertions in that thread were completely devoid of any logical framework. It's hard to be illogical when your only "proofs" of Christianity being absurd are blind assertions that don't even CONTAIN any logical arguments.

vulturesrow 10-12-2007 03:27 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
Lebowski,


Give you full credit for admitting your real motivation in starting religion threads. Most of the atheists here share your motivations, they are just more subtle about it. Basically, religion topics are started for the reason of bashing religion. Thats why I dont bother responding any more.

tpir 10-12-2007 03:29 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
oh come on.

You can't see the irony in a thread with the title "why does this forum care so much about religion", created by someone who has created several religious threads in the past? Followed by posts leading into RELIGIOUS DEBATE?

Re-read the OP. Do you think it honestly has any potential to lead into any worthwhile discussion on science, math, or philosophy? Or do you think it's simply a lead in attempt so that the atheists on here can gather together and pat each other on the back about how they stuck it to those dumb Christians?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you are focusing on the word "care" too much.

You also seem very paranoid or biased or something. These atheist circle jerks you keep dreaming of are not taking place.

Splendour 10-12-2007 03:32 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
Tpir says "Atheism promotes neither torture nor murder, regardless of what implicit ideals you try to draw from a disbelief in God."

Well religion certainly doesn't promote it.

Take a look at the Sermon on the Mount ..it has a turn your other cheek philosophy that Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. tried to put into action...I don't know any militant Buddhists...Its people and how they twist ideas...Its not the ideas themselves...That's why Hitler tried to write his own Bible, that's why some Communists try to stamp out religion. Ideas are powerful but it takes people to put them into action where they can be twisted and misapplied in accordance with the minds of the people applying the action. Try taking a look at Pol Pot of the Khmer Rouge. He outlawed religion. Repressive regimes take whatever route appeals to them. Abuse/re-write religious ideas or stamp them out to create vacuums of powers so they can seize control. Plenty of repressive regimes hate churchs because they traditionally have served as sanctuarys for dissidents not unlike the role of embassies located in foreign lands. If you're a dictator you either want to control the minds/ideas of your people or stamp out any place your opponents might seek refuge.

Subfallen 10-12-2007 03:33 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
KKF -

He's probably talking about this thread, which he and BTIrish deemed "illogical" because you obviously don't agree with the Christian premise that people fundamentally deserve to be tortured forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dear Subfallen,
I didn't deem it illogical. I simply pointed out that all assertions in that thread were completely devoid of any logical framework. It's hard to be illogical when your only "proofs" of Christianity being absurd are blind assertions that don't even CONTAIN any logical arguments.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it's obvious that his conclusion follows logically from humanistic premises that humans have rights and deserve to be treated fairly.

As I demonstrated in that thread, the Christian alternative is the one that is mendacious and subsists entirely on special pleading.

Again, if you would care to continue debating that point, I would be delighted to expand on the foolishness of your point of view.

Matt R. 10-12-2007 03:33 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
OK, maybe I am paranoid. Could you, then, just show me what debate or discussion was meant to be elicited from the OP? To me, it seems like the OP was trying to rile up the atheists on here to talk about how stupid Christians are. This kind of content is very prevalent in SMP.

So then... what discussion did OP mean to bring about with statements like,

" debate religion sometimes and my main motive is usually to be mean. I cannot think of another subject where I can pawn someone to a ridiculous extent as much as religion"

"Its like arguing with a child who thinks Santa Clause exists. People who believe in Christianity aren't going to change their mind when you present logic reasoning. If they were interested in logical reasoning, they wouldn't be Christians. "

Oh wow. Forget the quotes. It is basically the whole post.

vhawk01 10-12-2007 03:34 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
Lebowski,


Give you full credit for admitting your real motivation in starting religion threads. Most of the atheists here share your motivations, they are just more subtle about it. Basically, religion topics are started for the reason of bashing religion. Thats why I dont bother responding any more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bawk bawk bawk

Matt R. 10-12-2007 03:37 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
Subfallen,
You are delirious. Re-asserting your position 500 times, refusing to answer the simplest questions, refusing to provide any logical argument, and refusing to define any words you use is not exactly "crushing" someone.

It really bothers you that btirish and I made you look like a fool doesn't it? Come on man, it's an internet message board. That thread was weeks ago. Give it up.

kurto 10-12-2007 03:38 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
Of course not. Not yet. But wait until the first Atheist Docrine is written and see what happens.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you understand what an atheist is. There is no doctrine to 'not believing there is proof for a supernatural god.'

If you found that Stalin didn't believe in the Tooth Fairy, would you then conclude that the atrocities he committed were due to his lack of believe in tooth loving fairies?

Is there a code of unified beliefs about how to act in the world that comes out of all people who don't believe in the Tooth Fairy?

[ QUOTE ]
I might claim that the reason that the soviet union, headed by an Atheist, tortured and murdered so many, some of whom did believe in God, was because Stalin did not believe in God and didn't want anyone else too because he found religion dangerous so he murdered those that believed...

[/ QUOTE ]

There's nothing about Atheism that leads one to act as Stalin did. If you want examples look to 99.9% of atheists who don't act like or support the actions of Stalin.

[ QUOTE ]
I might claim this, I can't prove this, even though there is probably some truth to it, but you can't disprove it.

[/ QUOTE ]

We can't disprove he didn't act that way because aliens were controlling him from flying saucers in outerspace... therefore we need to give the idea considerable merit.

None of your examples qualify. There are no doctrines to atheism. It is simply someone who doesn't believe there is sufficient reason to believe in an all powerful God.

None of the examples you listed are driven by such beliefs. Atheism isn't needed to explain their actions. It is merely your conjecture for which you admit you have no evidence.

On the other hand, one need only look at history and find that religious people have and DO currently murder and kill specifically because of their religious doctrine.

No such firm examples exist for atheists.

Subfallen 10-12-2007 03:40 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
[ QUOTE ]
Subfallen,
You are delirious. Re-asserting your position 500 times, refusing to answer the simplest questions, refusing to provide any logical argument, and refusing to define any words you use is not exactly "crushing" someone.

It really bothers you that btirish and I made you look like a fool doesn't it? Come on man, it's an internet message board. That thread was weeks ago. Give it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yes, leaving the thread once it was obvious you had no "argument" besides claiming privileged status for Christian metaphysics...that really made me look like a fool.

AGAIN. I am 100% ready to debate you on the subject: Christian morality and metaphysics are not actually meaningful without special pleading a privileged status for the subjective meaning of these claims.

Ready to go?

Matt R. 10-12-2007 03:40 PM

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 
Subfallen,
Actually, LOL. Based on your most recent post referencing that thread weeks ago, I don't think you even comprehended what I was arguing for or against.

I think this logic stuff is over your head. Don't worry about it fella! I'll try to be nicer in the future.


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