Middle Pair
 

I am really stuck on how to deal with middle pairs.

Average live 3/6 game, lots of loose players, most passive, a couple of aggressive

Hero J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in EP

PF Hero limps
4 other callers including blinds

Flop 5sb [ Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ]
Hero ?

Re: Middle Pair
 

Check-evals

Re: Middle Pair
 

In a pot this small and with the action checked to me, I check and see who bets. It's very read dependent; if the loose and reckless button bets, you should probably raise. If the tight nitty old man in MP bets, you should probably dump it. I don't think there is a simple answer here, which is why you posted it in the first place [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Middle Pair
 

Ok...I'm with ya.
So lets say that...

These Calling Stations rarely raise, they will bet out when they have good or better hands (but will often just call when bet into). The LAGGY types here tend to bet anything but not raise much (only with great hands).


Hero checks
EMP checks
MP checks(Calling Station)
MP2 bets (LAGGY)
LP calls (Calling Station)
SB calls (slight LAG)
BB folds (Nitty)
Hero ?

Re: Middle Pair
 

First things first. I think checking here is really clear-cut.

But we're not checking and giving up on the hand. We're checking and waiting-and-seeing.

If a LAG button bets, you raise. If the guy to your left bets and everyone folds to you, probably muck. If he bets and they call call, call and pray.

This is a tough situation, and a reason why poker is hard. If poker were easy, we'd all be good and there'd be no reason to play.

What happened next?

Re: Middle Pair
 

Well, you're probably behind, and there's a diamond draw out there you have no part of. The pot is 11 small bets to you, and if you expect no raise behind you, then you're getting 11:1. If you discount the J and T of diamonds as half an out each, you have ~4 outs. It's close. You're 10.5:1 to improve on the river, and you're getting 11:1 now.

Call, cross your fingers, and reevaluate the turn.

Re: Middle Pair
 

I usually call here then.

Re: Middle Pair
 

Is betting wrong here? I think I bet here..

Re: Middle Pair
 

All the cards that can help you are somewhat tainted. Most of your two pair/trip outs make straights, flushes or re-draws to those hands. Your one card backdoor straight gives your hand just a little extra value, but I find it hard to put it at much more than half an out. Assuming a loose passive EMP player left to act, I count you getting in the neighborhood of 8 or 9:1 with a pretty small likelihood of a check raise. I don't think you're losing a lot by folding here, but to be honest I'd probably peel, check and see. Very marginal decision.

Re: Middle Pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is betting wrong here? I think I bet here..

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's wrong but I definitely think checking is preferable. Most of these loose passives will call a queen as opposed to raising it. Checking give us the information we need to make a better decision. If you bet all kinds of bad things can happen.