Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

Live 3/6 75/25 LP/TAG 1 slight LAG

MP=LP
HJ=TAG (Maybe...I didn't have much of a read.)
CO=TAG (Senior, rockish, had already been playing 13 hrs straight that day)

HERO on the button with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

PF folded to MP
MP calls
HJ calls
CO calls
Hero raises
Blinds fold
limpers call

Flop 9sb [9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]]
MP bets
HJ calls
CO calls
Hero ?

Here is my thinking...
12 sb to Hero
Outs: 3 A, 3 K, 1.5 BDFD = 7.5
These might need to discounted for hands like AA, KK, sets and 2 pair.
Outs: 1.5 A, 1.5 K, 1.5 BDFD = 4.5

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

... calls and re-evaluates. You can't fold this getting 12:1 closing the action. And surely you can't be considering raising.

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

[ QUOTE ]
... calls and re-evaluates. You can't fold this getting 12:1 closing the action. And surely you can't be considering raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

Ok good. This seemed obv to me too. Some table talk made me think twice about it.

Continuing on...

Hero calls

Turn 6.5bb [9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ]
MP Bets
HJ Calls
CO Folds
Hero Calls

River 9.5bb [9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]]
MP Checks
HJ Bets
Hero ?

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

I prefer a call on the river. MP may overcall closing the action. A raise will result in a re-raise by the Ac and a likely fold by just about everything else.

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

Raise the flop (intending to check turn unless you make a pair). Passive MP is rarely going to three bet you and if he does you know your A/K outs are no good and can just fold (unless you have odds to draw to your backdoor stuff).

Call the turn.

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

...calls again because we're big fat calling stations. Give MP a chance to call with just a jack or a weaker club. Don't re-open the betting against the HJ, who could have your 9th nut hand beat.

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

Call, go for the overcall.

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop (intending to check turn unless you make a pair). Passive MP is rarely going to three bet you and if he does you know your A/K outs are no good and can just fold (unless you have odds to draw to your backdoor stuff).

Call the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

And call the river.

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop (intending to check turn unless you make a pair). Passive MP is rarely going to three bet you and if he does you know your A/K outs are no good and can just fold (unless you have odds to draw to your backdoor stuff).

Call the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here when you raise on the flop, the only benefit is the free card. With a strong draw, the benefits would be the free card + padding the pot with equity. I don't thing the free card alone is enough to go for a free card here, because a lot of the time, we won't get free card anyway.