Interesting hand 10nl How do you play it?
 

I don't post a lot of hand here lately so I wanted to post this one since I was unsure of the best move. I had been showing good hands and had a tight image that is why I raised T8s in EP. Comments appreciated.

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BTN: $9.95
SB: $10.25
BB: $13.60
Hero (UTG): $12.85
CO: $2.60

Pre-Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $0.40</font>, 3 folds, BB calls $0.30

Flop: ($0.85) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $0.70</font>, <font color="red">BB raises to $1.80</font>, Hero calls $1.10

I was fully expecting to take it down with my Cbet on the flop. The c/r is a little interesting, this player hasn't done anything like this so far but then I ma still semi new to the table. I opt to just call with my gutshot and flush draw. Any one raise? I will update on my turn play after some replies are put in about my flop play.

Turn: ($4.45) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $2.50</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $10.65 and is All-In</font>, BB folds

Results: $9.45 Pot ($0.45 Rake)
Hero mucked 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and WON $9 (+$4.30 NET)

Re: Interesting hand 10nl How do you play it?
 

why are you raising T8s utg, even though 5 handed? serious question, not rhetorical.

Re: Interesting hand 10nl How do you play it?
 

So, I finally decided to start posting in this forum to become the world´s best poker player some day [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Anyway, given your play I would have folded behind you if you had risen in EP since you have a tight Image.

IMO BB could be check raising a QQ or pair of J. I don´t think he has a flush draw or else he wouldn´t have really folded on the turn. When the K comes he probably guesses that his one pair is no good anymore since you reraised him. Maybe he even puts you on KK or AA afterwards. I don´t think he guesses you have a flush draw due to your overagressive play and your intention to getting him to fold by intimidating him with an overbet.

Re: Interesting hand 10nl How do you play it?
 

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why are you raising T8s utg, even though 5 handed? serious question, not rhetorical.

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It is a semi marginal spot but like I said I was getting away with alot nad had a tight image. I like playing hands like this to exploit my image. If everyone folds I take it down if I get called atleast I am not likely to be dominated.

Re: Interesting hand 10nl How do you play it?
 

Flat fold pre, these guys probably don't give a [censored] about image and aren't positionally aware.

I probs shove over his flop raise.

Re: Interesting hand 10nl How do you play it?
 

Well I play T8 and such if I know that my raise will be pretty much the only action preflop. This was that kind of table. I wasnt worried about getting raised preflop and if I did I can get away from the hand very easily.

Re: Interesting hand 10nl How do you play it?
 

I'd probably stick it in the flop. This is were we have the most equity.

Re: Interesting hand 10nl How do you play it?
 

Between raising the turn and raising the flop i prefer raising the flop.
In fact i HATE your semi-bluff here.I think you are lucky that he folded.

*Guys thats a hell of a overbet to shove the flop.

Re: Interesting hand 10nl How do you play it?
 

I play this not like a spewtard

say this to yourself over and over: nl10 is NOT about fold equity, it is about value betting

plays like this lost me many buyins before i learned better

and dont raise 10 8 oop

Re: Interesting hand 10nl How do you play it?
 

Usually I would to. I think there is no way my hand looks like a FD and he isnt raising me with a FD so why not stick it in. When I do I get snap called and miss a good portion of the time. I decided to take a different tactic this hand. Wait for the turn. Luckily the K is kind of a scare card that I can bluff at.

Re: Interesting hand 10nl How do you play it?
 

no one cares at 10nl what your hand looks like. make a hand and vbet it to death, save this for msnl

Re: Interesting hand 10nl How do you play it?
 

Even at a tight table, I don't like T8s UTG because if it gets to the flop, you will often be OOP and run into these kind of marginal situations.

It's pretty obvious that villain has a J or some kind of PP lower than KK, so your turn play looks okay given your outs + FE.

IMO, this is still a very marginal spot (PF), and I know you're currently dealing with a bad downswing so I would generally suggest staying away from these marginal EV situations, especially if you're uncertain how to play it. It's okay to do every once in awhile I guess, but then I think you're putting money in OOP too often if this becomes a standard play under these conditions.

Good hand to post though - post more hands, it'll help your game out.

Re: Interesting hand 10nl How do you play it?
 

BTW, if turn card wasn't a K or A, you're probably getting called on your shove 99% of the time.

Re: Interesting hand 10nl How do you play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
no one cares at 10nl what your hand looks like. make a hand and vbet it to death, save this for msnl

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Could this be less constructive?

Re: Interesting hand 10nl How do you play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no one cares at 10nl what your hand looks like. make a hand and vbet it to death, save this for msnl

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Could this be less constructive?

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it is constructive. you cannot count on your opponents at this level to know your stats or table image, or have any semblance of hand reading skills. this is first level thinking here. People at higher stakes semibluff like this all the time. But their plays work because their opponents have some idea of how the game should be played. If you played this hand 10 times you should be shocked at what villains will call with. Your fold equity is never as great as you think. Why would you put yourself in these type of situations when people will call you down with anything? just be patient, make a hand, and get good value out of it. These kinds of plays are entirely unnecessary to beat the game.

Re: Interesting hand 10nl How do you play it?
 

This is mostly a grunch, since there's like 8 replies while I've been writing it:

Re: T8s UTG. I think it's marginal and i'd fold it the majority of the time given the typical table, but with the right image or table I raise it sometimes, especially if the blinds fold to c-bets too much and the LP players aren't making squeeze plays, and very very rarely I might even limp it with a loose-passive table of villains who don't raise pre-flop but get it in too loose postflop. In my opinion it's a threshold hand where table dynamics should factor heavily into how you play it, although folding is the best "default" play.

On the flop, with 100bb starting stacks I just shove here pretty much all the time for slightly more than a pot-sized raise. Here, about 130bb deep, it's less clear, but even discounting fold equity, and even if his range is only {JJ+,77,22,AhJh,Ah7h} you still have 40% equity, so I think it will be marginally +EV to get it in here, and of course it's even more so if add hands like AJo and if he folds that and some of the overpairs sometimes.

Given that it shouldn't be -EV even in the worst case scenario, and given that against a large part of his range your implied odds on the flush might not be very good, and that you lose a lot of equity on a blank turn, I think I would go ahead and raise the flop. I'm not certain whether it's better to just shove outright (which is a big overbet) or just raise to like $8. I'd probably just shove.

Note: I agree with the general sentiment that 10nl is more about value betting than fold-equity, and not semi-bluffing too lightly is one of the adjustments I had to make before I started actually winning at micro-stakes, but raising or betting with a strong combo-draw is, at some level, a value bet, since generally it increases the amount of equity you get from your hand. I don't semi-bluff raise a gut-shot at 10nl (a hand which depends heavily on FE) but a ~10-ish (discounting a bit) draw is very strong and raising it here is as much for value as it is for fold equity, in my opinion.

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I don´t think he has a flush draw or else he wouldn´t have really folded on the turn.

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You shouldn't reason like this when considering the flop action because obviously you don't know that he's going to fold to a turn shove on the flop, and normally you shouldn't assume that a flop check-raiser in a raised-pot is going to fold to a 3-bet on a (relatively) blank turn.

Re: Interesting hand 10nl How do you play it?
 

Lol you guys are all nits. T8s UTG is 100% fine, its thin and its a LAG play but its totally acceptable. Preflop doesnt matter anyway, its postflop where the money is made/lost. FWIW, 74s is in my UTG range so take that as you will.

Flop goot, I shove though. A blank turn kills your hand and you are a fave against Jx if its not 2pr. Turn is a sick play but given that hes def got a jack (or maybe a dumb FD) I think you get a fold a lot of the time here.

Ive based this on a 50nl/100nl villain, I think that this whole play is most likely -EV at 10nl just bc ppl dont like to fold TP. But here I think I would be 3betting the flop and looking to get AI. As played, I think I fold the turn bc I dont think you get paid if you hit.

Re: Interesting hand 10nl How do you play it?
 

I am not counting on his hand reading or his level of thinking. I cbet and got check raised and I have a flush draw with a gut shot. I am mainly wondering about my play of waiting for the turn to shove since it was a scare card. I have played alot of hands of ABC poker at this level, playing 9 tables. Breaking my game down to playing 2 tables and thinking through my actions has made my winrate skyrocket and a good part of it is being able to win marginal pots like this. ITs probably not needed but it certainly helps if done correctly.

Re: Interesting hand 10nl How do you play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Lol you guys are all nits. T8s UTG is 100% fine, its thin and its a LAG play but its totally acceptable. Preflop doesnt matter anyway, its postflop where the money is made/lost. FWIW, 74s is in my UTG range so take that as you will.


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TY AMA [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: Interesting hand 10nl How do you play it?
 

If this post is about the flop play then i say get it in there where your equity is maximized.

ama, you locked some of my threads where I made plays like this on the turn saying that I needed to work on my spew issues. i did, and my winrate skyrocketed

Re: Interesting hand 10nl How do you play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think that this whole play is most likely -EV at 10nl just bc ppl dont like to fold TP

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Mathematically, I don't see how this can be -EV at any level against AJo with no hearts calling, given the dead money in the pot. Of course, it's marginally +EV at best, or perhaps taking preflop into account even marginally -EV. Either way, I'm pretty sure getting it on the flop maximizes the amount of equity you actually get out of the hand.

Re: Interesting hand 10nl How do you play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think that this whole play is most likely -EV at 10nl just bc ppl dont like to fold TP

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Mathematically, I don't see how this can be -EV at any level against AJo with no hearts calling, given the dead money in the pot. Of course, it's marginally +EV at best, or perhaps taking preflop into account even marginally -EV. Either way, I'm pretty sure getting it on the flop maximizes the amount of equity you actually get out of the hand.

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I was referring to the turn, not the flop.

Board: 7h 2h Js Kc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 24.621% 24.62% 00.00% 130 0.00 { Th8h }
Hand 1: 75.379% 75.38% 00.00% 398 0.00 { AJs, AJo }

Re: Interesting hand 10nl How do you play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop doesnt matter anyway, its postflop where the money is made/lost.

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Preflop matters a lot in NL when in early position.

Now I'm not arguing whether he should or should not have raised T8s utg (really he's in MP), I just wanted to know what his reasoning was.

Re: Interesting hand 10nl How do you play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was referring to the turn

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[img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] Sorry. I agree with you then.

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Turn is a sick play but given that hes def got a jack (or maybe a dumb FD) I think you get a fold a lot of the time here.

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I'm not sure I agree that he must always have a jack. His line is pretty strong and a set is not out of the question.

I think I have two problems with the turn bluff:

1) I don't feel like you can adequately represent a king here given the flop call. Did you call with AK with no hearts? If you called the flop with KJ would you really shove the turn? If you had AKhh wouldn't you raise the flop?

2. At 10NL, as mentioned, bluffing to fold out TPTK should be a rare play. (Although it's sweet when it works.)

So basically against a good, observant player, the line looks awfully fishy, and you might get looked up by someone who figures it for a semi-bluff with exactly the kind of hand you have, and against a bad player you just don't get enough folds.

Re: Interesting hand 10nl How do you play it?
 

IMO you played it fine. In general, doing stuff like this at NL10 is -EV but sometimes it's ok. As has been previously mentioned, it depends a lot on the table. Flop is ok. Shoving is also ok but it's high variance. As played, I like the turn play a lot as long as this guy isn't a total station. However, had the turn been a blank you would need to fold to his bet.

Re: Interesting hand 10nl How do you play it?
 

I have no problem playing suited 1 gappers if I am pretty sure that I can see the flop for just the price of my raise. I am not going to stack off on a T24 flop or anything like that.