NL400 SICK laydown with KK somewhat deep
 

Poker Room skin
Pot Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $2/$4
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $400
UTG+1: $386
MP1: $321.50
MP2: $330.50
MP3: $404
CO: $409.20
Button: $389.80
Hero: $656.70
BB: $774.70

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
3 folds, MP2 calls, <font color="#cc0000">MP3 raises to $16</font>, CO folds, Button calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $55</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises to $125</font>, 3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($286, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets $150</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($586, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets $245</font>, Hero folds.

Villain is a good player, tagish stats, if i remember correctly like 18/8 or something. Preflop clearly says "aces" but I can pretty much call for set value, flop comes pretty but with no king and he bets fairly big, anyone lays down here? I just cant get rid of my kings so I call, on the turn he bets big again, I just cant see this being anything else than AA, good laydown?

Re: NL400 SICK laydown with KK somewhat deep
 

I don't see calling the flop if you are going to laydown to that turn. I go broke here, but I don't believe in the 'he has to have aces read' and have a lot of variance with my pocket Kings. Some of the better players may laydown kings here, I would like to hear from them.

Re: NL400 SICK laydown with KK somewhat deep
 

Yea I'm also sceptical about the flop call, the pot gets so big it's bigger than the stack I have left, but it's just so hard to lay down KK here.... probably one of the toughest I have done, want to hear more opinions!

Re: NL400 SICK laydown with KK somewhat deep
 

How much does having 160BB really change this hand? If you had 100BB, you would stack off in a heartbeat. I don't think 160BB really changes anything based on our hand and the board. I would lean towards getting it in.

In any case, you need to make up your mind on the flop. Either raise or fold. Calling flop and folding turn is spew.

I'm also curious as to what others think.

Re: NL400 SICK laydown with KK somewhat deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop clearly says "aces" but I can pretty much call for set value

[/ QUOTE ] Why did you abandon your read on the flop? Calling flop with your read is total spewage.

Re: NL400 SICK laydown with KK somewhat deep
 

Calling flop and folding turn is the worst line here IMO, you can't 150$ hoping to hit your two outer.

I fold this on the flop and I honestly think (I know I'm going to get flamed) that you could even think about folding this PF. There are not many spots in which to fold KK PF 4 betting big out of the BB, I don't think his range is really wide there...

Re: NL400 SICK laydown with KK somewhat deep
 

I dont lay this down, if he has AA he isnt scared of any card and I think he will check behind that on turn to get bluffvalue or easier get paid on river.

Re: NL400 SICK laydown with KK somewhat deep
 

Honestly just fold preflop or felt it. You don't have set odds so [censored] that. I would felt it because I don't like to fold.

Re: NL400 SICK laydown with KK somewhat deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly just fold preflop or felt it. You don't have set odds so [censored] that. I would felt it because I don't like to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well he's getting almost 3:1 direct odds on his money with effective stacks 7.5x the raise he is calling, so it is at least close right?

Re: NL400 SICK laydown with KK somewhat deep
 

9.6:1 counting implied odds so it's not bad.

Re: NL400 SICK laydown with KK somewhat deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dont lay this down, if he has AA he isnt scared of any card and I think he will check behind that on turn to get bluffvalue or easier get paid on river.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, that's so horrible. if i had AA i play the same. there is ton of money, your hand (hero's) is super duper transparent, and if an K Q or A falls, it will make me cry/kill my action, in that order. i don't mind winning 275 bb without seeing a SD.

Re: NL400 SICK laydown with KK somewhat deep
 

I've played very few hands at this level, so whilst I'm sceptical about your certainty it's AA, I'll take your word for it.

However, having decided:

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop clearly says "aces" but I can pretty much call for set value

[/ QUOTE ]

why are you then calling on the flop when you *miss* your set?

Re: NL400 SICK laydown with KK somewhat deep
 

why are you then calling on the flop when you *miss* your set?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a valid point, but I didn't like only call for setvalue, but I just mentioned it because it shows that this is an easy call preflop. And for those saying I don't have the set odds, what do you mean? If we put him on AA and know he is going to stack off, I am getting them. But I guess folding the flop would be the right alternative, It's just so freaking hard [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] But then come to think of it, I could see a point for felting it the way played, when he has AA I have 4 split outs on the board and 2 outs to win. I asked him what he had after the laydown and he said KK...

Re: NL400 SICK laydown with KK somewhat deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
why are you then calling on the flop when you *miss* your set?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a valid point, but I didn't like only call for setvalue, but I just mentioned it because it shows that this is an easy call preflop. And for those saying I don't have the set odds, what do you mean? If we put him on AA and know he is going to stack off, I am getting them. But I guess folding the flop would be the right alternative, It's just so freaking hard [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] But then come to think of it, I could see a point for felting it the way played, when he has AA I have 4 split outs on the board and 2 outs to win. I asked him what he had after the laydown and he said KK...

[/ QUOTE ]

What split outs? 9 to 1 is not enough to look for a set preflop.

Re: NL400 SICK laydown with KK somewhat deep
 

ok nevermind about the split outs I'm tired [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: NL400 SICK laydown with KK somewhat deep
 

7.5 to 1 to make a set, with the chance of getting of getting set over setted and a very small chance it's just a random bluff and he shuts down I do think my preflop call is justified, but I do think the best line is to fold the flop. Those who say felt it, what hand range do you put villain on?

Re: NL400 SICK laydown with KK somewhat deep
 

Metagame call? Really, an important thing to know is MP3's stats. If MP3 is a 60/30/3, this becomes trivial shovage. In this case, you ISO'd a donk [your range: AT+, KJ+, 88+], BB reisod you [AK, AQs, JJ+]. Even if not, I really don't want to fold here against relatively unknown. On this board, we have the second nuts. BB can definitely 4-bet Queens and AK preflop and his continuation is pretty standard. If we c/f flop, we're folding the best of it often. The only time in this hand where it really looks like we're beat is on the turn. However, commiting 40% of effective stack and folding mega-brick turn is sickening. Honestly, I think you just have to go broke.

Re: NL400 SICK laydown with KK somewhat deep
 

Agree with other posts above; if you're gonna call the flop, you can't fold the turn. It is better to call or raise the flop with the intention of getting it all-in, or folding the flop if you are that worried that he has aces.

Re: NL400 SICK laydown with KK somewhat deep
 

The decision is preflop, brah.

Re: NL400 SICK laydown with KK somewhat deep
 

I see 3 options for this hand that are dependent on whether you think the opponent can have anything but aces.

1) If I had a strong feeling he had aces, I'd just fold preflop. Really nothing wrong with that.

2) If I think there's a decent chance this could be another hand that isn't aces, I'd call and figure out how to get my money in on any non-ace board post. I'm not pushing cause unless this player is awful, he's not calling w/ less than KK, but you might extract more value by checking flop (possibly checkrasing, possibly check/calling flop getting it in on the turn).

3) You think that opponent might have AA, but his postflop play is so tranparent that you'll be able to figure out on the flop whether they have AA or not. If this was your read, then fold on the flop.

There is no need to put in 2/5ths of your stack before deciding you are beat in this hand.

Re: NL400 SICK laydown with KK somewhat deep
 

Preflop your choices are push or fold I think. Okay, maybe a call only if you are then willing to laydown the flop if you don't hit your set.

In short, preflop:

Folding: Is okay only if you are very very certain of your read that he is only doing this with aces. I felted once with KK to find myself up against - KK.

This TAG - what does he think of you? He might be re-raising with QQ if he puts you on TT+ and AK etc.


Raising all in: I'm pushing here, buy I only play live, so YMMV.

Calling: A call here is only good if you hit your set, and folding the flop if you don't. As such, your flop call is bad IMO - if you're planning on calling the flop, push PF.

NOTE: I might point out that calling PF hoping to hit a set, you are barely getting the required implied odds to call, assuming you believe you can stack him if you hit your set. You definitely do not have odds nor implied odds to call this flop bet, hoping to spike your set on the turn. If he has aces fold this flop. Otherwise, push, but calling is bad here.


AB

Re: NL400 SICK laydown with KK somewhat deep
 

I actually don't hate it.

If villain doesn't get out of line, his range for betting the turn is tighter than his range for betting the flop.

Re: NL400 SICK laydown with KK somewhat deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
This TAG - what does he think of you? He might be re-raising with QQ if he puts you on TT+ and AK etc.


[/ QUOTE ]

you are squeezing in an obvious squeeze spot, so hopefully you have a wider range in this spot than TT+ AK as its free money