Re: How to build credit
 

[ QUOTE ]
The cost is the stigma / damage to your self-worth of admitting you need to do this. Now obviously the majority in this thread is not embarrassed by it. I find that sad but oh well.


[/ QUOTE ]
Henry,
I understand what you're saying, but I think the view you are taking is unhealthy. I know, your instinct is to immediately dismiss my comment, but I challenge you to challenge your own "beliefs" on money management. Ask yourself, why does owning multiple lines of credit and managing them prudently based on their interest rates do damage to your self worth? I think you may have issues that should be addressed by a professional.

Re: How to build credit
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're already wayyy behind the curve if you're seriously 25 and w/o any credit history.

[/ QUOTE ]

Behind what curve? Like I said, I don't have any use for a cc other than getting free money.

Re: How to build credit
 

There is some stigma with sports betting but I didn't do it for $6k/year.

The stigma stems for the most part from the fact that someone would need to play this credit card shell game to make $6k/year. The return is central to why there is a stigma.

About 2-3 years ago I was going to get involved with a club. Luckily before anything was done one of the other partners mentioned doing something like this (not quite but similar in that it was a lot of shell game work for a few dollars). I walked away from the club. I'm not going to get involved with someone who is obviously that much in need of funds. So his $2-3k end up costing him the club he wanted. I'm not willing to have other people judging me and questioning me over $6k. I care too much about my reputation.

I'm going to stop posting because I think it is impossible to see each other's point. I think it stems from different perspectives on the utility value of $6k.

Re: How to build credit
 

Ron,

A lot of the advice in here is either wrong or not the best way to build credit. Check out fatwallet's finance forum and read up. You don't have to buy stuff on a credit card and pay it off in the same month to build credit, you just need the card (that might mean make a purchase every year so they don't cancel, but the whole idea of racking up 3k/month and paying it off increasing your credit is wrong.) Also, if you have no use for credit for the next 6-12 months, you might as well apply for plenty of credit cards at the same time. It's better to get your credit cards now to build the credit history/age. Getting 1 card now and another in a year means you wasted 6 months and then an inquiry will be affecting your credit score for another 6-12 months.

If you have a parent or relative that has ALWAYS paid their card on time and someone you can trust/they can trust you, then get them to add you as an Authorized User. Wait a month or two, then apply for all the "easy" cards on the same day. Try to get an AMEX card, they allow a credit line increase instantly online.

Re: How to build credit
 

Henry17,

you should probably just correspond with David Sklansky since your immense wealth seemingly makes the rest of pond scum for being interested in making $6k.

Also, for the love of God, stop saying $6k per year as if it is some salary for daily work.

If on every January 1 I showed up at your door and offered to hand you a cashier's check for $4k in exchange for counting from 1 to 10, would you be offended and turn it down as beneath you?

I mean, it's only $4k per year! The utility of that money is miniscule compared to your wealth!

Re: How to build credit
 

[ QUOTE ]

The stigma stems for the most part from the fact that someone would need to play this credit card shell game to make $6k/year. The return is central to why there is a stigma.

...

You do realize you can't make an act less sketchy by pointing out that the person / company you are taking advantage of also engages in questionable behaviour. If you rob a drug dealer you are still a thief.


[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you can rip them off for a handsome sum, I guess? You are not making much sense.

eastbay

Re: How to build credit
 

Henry,

Why would you disclose such information if you are afraid of people "judging" you? I don't remember any conversation I've had where someone has said "I have 20 credit cards making me $8,000 a year" and I certainly wouldn't tell anyone about an app-o-rama if I ever did one.

BTW, I think you are the only one that judges people over accepting free money. Something is seriously wrong with you if you can't see that everyone doesn't make 500k/yr like you.

Re: How to build credit
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you disclose such information if you are afraid of people "judging" you? I don't remember any conversation I've had where someone has said "I have 20 credit cards making me $8,000 a year" and I certainly wouldn't tell anyone about an app-o-rama if I ever did one

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if you feel it should be kept secret that implies there is something shameful. I don't believe in doing something that if it became public I'd be embarrassed.

Also it is on your credit report. So anyone with access to that will know. If you rent the landlord will know. Your bank will probably know. Somebody who is a few degrees of separation away from your group will know.

Mail gets delivered to the wrong address. I've received my neighbour's credit card statement and bank statement by mistake. People snoop when they come over so you'd basically have to be careful to never leave anything out.

---------

It really has nothing to do with making $500k or any amount. Assuming the individual wanted minimal risk they would make a 5-6% return. To make the $6k they would need $100k in credit. To get that much credit I assume they have to have considerably above average incomes.

Re: How to build credit
 

A lot of attention has been paid to the possibility of 'free' money doing this app-o-rama. I can't really see how the money is free. If you have to spend time and energy to sign up, keep track of, pay off, etc. all these credit cards, thats not free.

Now, having said that, I will say that I know several high net worth investors that got started by investing money that they borrowed from credit cards. A good friend of mine did a similar thing to the app-o-rama and built about $200,000 in available credit for which he has to pay 4-6%.

He used some of that money to buy two fast food franchises. He used some more to buy some discounted notes. He used even more of that money to buy some real estate. Now he's rich, so I guess he got the last laugh.

I'm not really in a position to judge whether this is sketchy or unethical. I don't really care about those judgements. I think that this could be a great way to get started investing.

Re: How to build credit
 

You said you wee going to stop posting in this thread. So just stop. Please.

Re: How to build credit
 

I don't quite get this. Are you going from intro offer to intro offer or using all 20 cards past the intro period somehow to avoid paying interest?

I'm certainly not above a free few thousand dollars a year for what sounds like very minimal work.

Re: How to build credit
 

I'd be interested to see the risk of exploding your credit. I assume this plan is fairly new.

I'll certainly laugh if it does.

Also I support Henry17 on this matter almost fully. It seems like a paltry sum for a fairly significant amount of lame work. (I think sifting through 8000 pieces of mail each week needs to be included) In addition to the credit risk and the general way this is viewed. I think its a pretty solid pass unless it'd make a very large impact on your standard of living.

Re: How to build credit
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would you disclose such information if you are afraid of people "judging" you? I don't remember any conversation I've had where someone has said "I have 20 credit cards making me $8,000 a year" and I certainly wouldn't tell anyone about an app-o-rama if I ever did one

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if you feel it should be kept secret that implies there is something shameful. I don't believe in doing something that if it became public I'd be embarrassed.

Also it is on your credit report. So anyone with access to that will know. If you rent the landlord will know. Your bank will probably know. Somebody who is a few degrees of separation away from your group will know.

Mail gets delivered to the wrong address. I've received my neighbour's credit card statement and bank statement by mistake. People snoop when they come over so you'd basically have to be careful to never leave anything out.

---------

It really has nothing to do with making $500k or any amount. Assuming the individual wanted minimal risk they would make a 5-6% return. To make the $6k they would need $100k in credit. To get that much credit I assume they have to have considerably above average incomes.

[/ QUOTE ]

You seriously don't make sense. Not disclosing information doesn't mean you are embarrassed. I don't tell random people that I play poker, love hockey, and hate ketchup. Am I embarrassed by any of those? No.

How often do you talk to your landlord or bank teller? Not only that, but they see that you have a high amount of $ tied up.... IS THIS THE END OF THE WORLD? Are they going to publish your name in the local newspaper and label you a pedophile for being resourceful? I don't think you understand that the credit card companies are OFFERING 0% balance transfers. You aren't holding a gun to their head and raping every employee, they are willing to give you 0%.

Also, you don't need a high income to have high credit. I don't even have an income and have a high amount of credit. How does having no income and high credit fit into your theory?

It's so hard to understand how someone can be as stupid as you. "$16/day is worth nothing!#!~" How much do you make? If it's $500,000, that's less than a $1/minute. Are you telling me picking up 10 dimes off the ground every minute is worth it?

Re: How to build credit
 

i have seen a small amount of research put into this 'app-o-rama' thing and it seems to not hurt your credit in the medium to long term. if you plan on buying a house soon, you should probably not do it as even a few credit points can be expensive.

the 'self respect' argument is beyond retarded.

the only way i can see this being -EV is if you have a habit of missing CC payments. even then that is solved by just setting up automatic payments thru your banks bill pay, which also massively cuts down on your time invested.

Re: How to build credit
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd be interested to see the risk of exploding your credit. I assume this plan is fairly new.

I'll certainly laugh if it does.

Also I support Henry17 on this matter almost fully. It seems like a paltry sum for a fairly significant amount of lame work. (I think sifting through 8000 pieces of mail each week needs to be included) In addition to the credit risk and the general way this is viewed. I think its a pretty solid pass unless it'd make a very large impact on your standard of living.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't ever do an app-o-rama just because I'm lazy and would probably forget to do the required stuff. However, saying it's a paltry sum is a joke. 6k could be more than 10% of someone's yearly salary. Also, I don't know where you are getting 8000 pieces of mail/week. In case you didn't know, we are living in 2007. Everything can be done online. You are right about it being a pretty big risk. Again, no one will ever know you do it unless you disclose it, so I don't know how anyone can view you negatively (nor do I understand why you would care)

Re: How to build credit
 

I took a brief look at apparama. From what I gleened, the objective is to sign up for credit w/ 0% int, get cash advances and put the money in an interest paying account.

I get a ton of these offers in the mail, but don't they have different standards for cash advances as opposed to purchases?

Re: How to build credit
 

henry, im not sure why you keep harping on it being "$16/day." this project is not worked on daily and doesnt seem to work on a strict year cycle. it seems you arbitrarily think of it in terms of money per day for other reason.

there is certainly risk involved and i wouldnt brag about it to my friends but id entertain the idea of making $6000 per day or $1.60 per decade.

Re: How to build credit
 

[ QUOTE ]
I took a brief look at apparama. From what I gleened, the objective is to sign up for credit w/ 0% int, get cash advances and put the money in an interest paying account.

I get a ton of these offers in the mail, but don't they have different standards for cash advances as opposed to purchases?

[/ QUOTE ]

You certainly have to read all of the fine print before jumping into something with this much risk. For example, some cards let you have 0% as long as you make two purchases a month... a tiny mistake like not knowing that could cost you thousands of dollars.

Re: How to build credit
 

[ QUOTE ]
I took a brief look at apparama. From what I gleened, the objective is to sign up for credit w/ 0% int, get cash advances and put the money in an interest paying account.

I get a ton of these offers in the mail, but don't they have different standards for cash advances as opposed to purchases?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. My cash advance is 20% of total credit limit.

Re: How to build credit
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your credit score gets cripled if you have more than 3 "applications" on your record within 12 months

[/ QUOTE ]

I have 11 hard pulls and 9 new revolving lines of credit on my account all within the last 4 months. My FICO has gone from 729 to 721 during this time. Does this fit your definition of crippled?

[ QUOTE ]
and goes down for every additional credit card you have over 4.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have secret insight to the Fair Isaac formula? I have 18 revolving lines of credit and after my latest round of hard pulls drop off my credit record, I'll still be eligible for the best rates should I ever need them.

Re: How to build credit
 

[ QUOTE ]

Filling out the forms might be something you do every few months but that isn't the cost of this endeavour. The cost is the stigma / damage to your self-worth of admitting you need to do this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I, like most others here, am a maven and take pride in the fact I work the system for financial gain. I don't need to do this, I enjoy doing it.

Re: How to build credit
 

[ QUOTE ]
It isn't just me. When this topic was discussed before I actually brought it up to get some opinions from my friends and they agreed. Pathetic might not have been the best choice of words but it is certainly bottom feeder behaviour. To get involved in all this for an extra $6k a year isn't worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]

henry,

i APPLAUD people who do stuff like this and just based on the law of averages i most likely have a > net worth than any of the friends you talked with.

an extra 6k this year is an 'extra' 50k 25 years from now. the fact that it is 'extra' money makes it even more appealing.


also if anybody 'found out' i was doing this and looked down on me i would just assume they are an idiot.

Re: How to build credit
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It isn't just me. When this topic was discussed before I actually brought it up to get some opinions from my friends and they agreed. Pathetic might not have been the best choice of words but it is certainly bottom feeder behaviour. To get involved in all this for an extra $6k a year isn't worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]

henry,

i APPLAUD people who do stuff like this and just based on the law of averages i most likely have a > net worth than any of the friends you talked with.

an extra 6k this year is an 'extra' 50k 25 years from now. the fact that it is 'extra' money makes it even more appealing.


also if anybody 'found out' i was doing this and looked down on me i would just assume they are an idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take Henry in this for 5k even money.


Also since most people owe money. Doesn't just having a + NW put you in atleast the top 50% of non-dependents?

Re: How to build credit
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It isn't just me. When this topic was discussed before I actually brought it up to get some opinions from my friends and they agreed. Pathetic might not have been the best choice of words but it is certainly bottom feeder behaviour. To get involved in all this for an extra $6k a year isn't worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]

henry,

i APPLAUD people who do stuff like this and just based on the law of averages i most likely have a > net worth than any of the friends you talked with.

an extra 6k this year is an 'extra' 50k 25 years from now. the fact that it is 'extra' money makes it even more appealing.


also if anybody 'found out' i was doing this and looked down on me i would just assume they are an idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take Henry in this for 5k even money.


Also since most people owe money. Doesn't just having a + NW put you in atleast the top 50% of non-dependents?

[/ QUOTE ]

oh well then color me surprised that somebody with such a silly outlook on the accumulation of money (zomg what will others think) actually has a lot of it. then again, i probably shouldn't make assumptions.

Re: How to build credit
 

also i would like to point something out. people who do stuff like this (hustle credit cards) almost always don't NEED the money. it has zero to do with needing money and everything to do with appreciating how money can work for you.

Re: How to build credit
 

Still not understanding how this can work. Cash advances generally don't fall into all of this 0% stuff right?

Re: How to build credit
 

[ QUOTE ]
Still not understanding how this can work. Cash advances generally don't fall into all of this 0% stuff right?

[/ QUOTE ]

balance transfer...either to a credit card or directly to your bank account. if its a credit card, say request 10k be sent to card A...Card B (the one with the 0% balance xfer) sends the 10k to card A and gives you 0% for 12 months to pay it back. you then have a positive balance on card A and request it be sent to you....kinda like you overpaid somehow by 10k and want it back...its not an issue with the majority of cards, they just send it to you. sometimes card B will even send you a check directly. you then invest the 10k in whatever and make min payments for 11 months and pay it off completely before the 12 months is up...the interest earned is yours. however the side effects are people who get your mail (and open it!) will think you are a bottom feeder.

my explanation is kinda meh, you can google for better. im sure you get the idea though.

Re: How to build credit
 

You can balance transfer to a card with $0 balance and request a check sent to you? My Chase card doesn't seem like that'd fly with them as they throw a fit if I try to overpay at all online.

You can do a balance transfer with the money to a bank account?

It's beginning to make a bit more sense, but some of the details don't quite make sense to me.

Re: How to build credit
 

[ QUOTE ]
also i would like to point something out. people who do stuff like this (hustle credit cards) almost always don't NEED the money. it has zero to do with needing money and everything to do with appreciating how money can work for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand why anyone would do something if you don't need to. By need I mean it has an impact (or at least they believe it will have an impact) on their quality of life.

Anyway the flaw in my reasoning was that I assumed the ability to get credit was strongly correlated to income. That for someone to manage to get two $100k credit cards would require that they make at least $150-200k.

[ QUOTE ]
i APPLAUD people who do stuff like this and just based on the law of averages i most likely have a > net worth than any of the friends you talked with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unlike you I won't make any assumptions about your net worth. I also have no idea what my friends' net worth is either. I do know what they pay in rent since they are my neighbours. If you are using the law of averages as a foundation then you'd lose this bet.

---------

[ QUOTE ]
Still not understanding how this can work. Cash advances generally don't fall into all of this 0% stuff right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have never researched it but I think I have a general idea of how it works.

1. Get a credit card. Max it out with cash advances. You will pay interest on this but only for a very short period.

2. Get a second credit card. Take advantage of the introductory offer and transfer the entire balance from credit card 1 to this card. Now the loan is interest free.

3. Meet all the obligations of the second card. Some require nothing. Others require that you make X amount in purchases.

4. As the promotion ends get a new credit card. Got to Step 2 and repeat.

Re: How to build credit
 

Henry,

I make mid-six figures a year and I'd do this for an extra $6k a year. It would have zero impact on my qualify of life, but I'm not retarded.

I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to understand.

Re: How to build credit
 

[ QUOTE ]
Henry,

I make mid-six figures a year and I'd do this for an extra $6k a year. It would have zero impact on my qualify of life, but I'm not retarded.

I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to understand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if it has zero impact on the quality of your life then the utility value of the $6k is zero.

The cost of doing this is not zero. There is the effort, the stigma, the minimal risk of missing something in the T&C.

So it isn't my position that is hard to understand. If it really has no impact on your quality of life then your position is the one that doesn't make sense. Why would you do anything for no reward?

Re: How to build credit
 

You are confusing something not impacting my quality of life now with not having any reward. I'm all for increasing my net worth to retire earlier.

Re: How to build credit
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are confusing something not impacting my quality of life now with not having any reward. I'm all for increasing my net worth to retire earlier.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then it does have an impact on the quality of your life. Mind you you could accomplish the same thing by just cutting out $16/day in spending and that would be a lot easier and less embarrassing than this.

Maybe I'm alone on this but there are certain things you just don't do when you hit a certain wealth level.

Re: How to build credit
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are confusing something not impacting my quality of life now with not having any reward. I'm all for increasing my net worth to retire earlier.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then it does have an impact on the quality of your life. Mind you you could accomplish the same thing by just cutting out $16/day in spending and that would be a lot easier and less embarrassing than this.

Maybe I'm alone on this but there are certain things you just don't do when you hit a certain wealth level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so you are just a troll. Good to know.

I'd cut out $16/day in spending except that would negatively impact my quality of life to the point where it isn't worth it. Instead, I can just do this and not have to lower my quality of life and get the extra money for little work! Wow, what a concept.

Re: How to build credit
 

I'm not trying to be a troll. I'm just having a hard time understanding your position.

If you make six figures then I assume you spend at a certain level. Cutting $16/day out wouldn't be much of an impact. Certainly less than the effort involved in this.

If my spending assumption is wrong and you save the vast majority of your income then having an extra $6k will only increase your net worth by the value of about $10k over 20 years meaning relative to your income (est $150) you can retire a whole 2-3 weeks earlier than if you didn't do this. Again hardly worth it.

Re: How to build credit
 

Henry,

Seriously dude, just move on. What is the point of even posting on 2+2 if 99.9% are such peons and bottom feeders that you can't even comprehend why we would want upwards of $15-20k per year (as the link suggests are the upward bounds, since you invented this $6k figure and stuck with it).

Do you just troll the poker boards and say "Who cares if you call or fold, that $300 will have no impact on your quality of life! ha ha! Even if calling is wrong and you do it, so what? Just cut out a dollar a day from your spending!"

Re: How to build credit
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously dude, just move on. What is the point of even posting on 2+2 if 99.9% are such peons and bottom feeders that you can't even comprehend why we would want upwards of $15-20k per year (as the link suggests are the upward bounds, since you invented this $6k figure and stuck with it).

[/ QUOTE ]

$6000 is based on $100k in credit at 6% which is the most you can realistically expect without taking on some risk.

To make the amount the site claims you'd need to qualify for $300-500k in credit. To be honest I don't know how difficult that is but I'm pretty sure you can't get that much unsecured credit unless you are making enough money to not care to do this.

Realistically most individuals who would choose to do this would be making less than $6k/year.

Re: How to build credit
 

I really don't see why people are getting up in arms with Henry over this. I'd assume for the 6k a year that is a fairly high end amount of apporama a year (someone correct me on this if I'm wrong) and you'd likely have to do a significant amount of book keeping as one or two late payments can basically destroy the entire earnings of the plan. I'd also hate to see just dealing with the mail issue. Or the fact that there will be stigma when you apply for a job. Especially a high end career type job. You wanna finish law school and a get a job, they'll pull your credit and see you have 120938102983102 credit cards? They ask you about it and how do you respond that doesn't sound like you're a scam artist if they even bother to ask?

I don't even know why some one who plays poker wouldn't just grind another 20-30 hours a year and not bother with this.

Re: How to build credit
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't see why people are getting up in arms with Henry over this. I'd assume for the 6k a year that is a fairly high end amount of apporama a year (someone correct me on this if I'm wrong) and you'd likely have to do a significant amount of book keeping as one or two late payments can basically destroy the entire earnings of the plan. I'd also hate to see just dealing with the mail issue. Or the fact that there will be stigma when you apply for a job. Especially a high end career type job. You wanna finish law school and a get a job, they'll pull your credit and see you have 120938102983102 credit cards? They ask you about it and how do you respond that doesn't sound like you're a scam artist if they even bother to ask?

I don't even know why some one who plays poker wouldn't just grind another 20-30 hours a year and not bother with this.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, why would you get mail if you don't want it? Hello 2007! I don't receive ANY bills in the mail.

Second, it won't take a significant amount of time to do. 1-2 hours a month isn't going to kill anyone. After the first month you can even automate everything. Not everyone can makes $200/hr, nor is grinding considered as "better" by everyone. $6k is actually a low figure if you've been building your credit for a while. It's not hard to get 300k in personal credit and a few hundred thousand more in business credit.

Finally, this isn't for someone that is going to look for a job right now nor will the company care that you have 129038102 credit cards... they will only care that your debt-to-credit ratio is high. If you do it correctly, your credit won't take a big hit and you can return it to your previous score within 12 months. Again, you would have to be stupid to do an app-o-rama before needing a loan or getting a job.

Please stop pulling [censored] out of your ass like Henry. Everyone is "up in arms" because he's a troll that can't imagine people making less than him.

Re: How to build credit
 

[ QUOTE ]

If you make six figures then I assume you spend at a certain level. Cutting $16/day out wouldn't be much of an impact. Certainly less than the effort involved in this.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can double your yearly income if you pick up 10 dimes a minute. Why don't you go do that? Why are you posting on a forum? You certainly aren't making any money by posting on 2p2 and picking up 10 dimes a minute would have more utility.

STFU with your $16/day spiel. That would be a great line to use if doing an app-o-rama took 12-24hours/day to complete. It only takes 2 hours max a month and even less time as months go by. Not to mention, cutting $16/day would have a much bigger negative impact than just "working" for 8 hours to make $12,000 and carrying that non-existent stigma.