idea about resolving disputes
 

I won't be pressing for this. Just want to see what people think. Here's my deleted post from the assani thread.

What I'm wondering is if there isn't a problem with the structure of how situations are resolved. Stuff like this thing with assani really isn't a forum specific issue, yet that's the only way we're organized to deal with it. Groups of mods disagree with each other on certain incidents and overall ideas. Often a red will then have to pick a side. When it's about anything that spreads over more than one forum the admins are the only ones currently recognized as being able to decide. Shouldn't there be something sort of in between to keep the right balance?

Mat's already mentioned super mods in the other thread, but that's separate and not what I'm thinking here. What if instead of just picking sides we had an agreed upon way to decide a dispute with votes? You know, like the supreme court! It could be mod reps for the different types of forums on 2+2, possibly including a regular member or two.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

ryan,

this sounds super stupid. the reason there's a difference between mods and admins. i think that having a system where when it comes down to it, the admins make the decisions is fine. the mods should present their cases, and should hopefully have their input weighed by the admins, but having the admins make the real decision is pretty important, imo.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

citanulisright imo

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

My problem with that is it creates animosity. It's often just people yelling at each other rather than deciding something or working it out, which is what it should be about.

I agree it does sound stupid. But I figure I'm willing to look a little silly on the chance it's a good idea.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

[censored] each and every one of you [censored].

if you don't like it ryan will demod you

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

i like mat. he buys beer.

what has ryan done for me lately?

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

Oh, and the admins would obviously still have their power. I'm just talking about sort of an... extra branch? Chances are if you don't like my idea you hate America. There... I said it.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

Kitchen Cabinet >> Star Chamber*

* If 4_2_it is appointed leader of the Star Chamber then Star Chamber >>>>>>>>>>>&gt ; Kitchen Cabinet

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

This is the dumbest thing I've heard of since I heard about the Police reunion. There... I said it.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

Reasons? This is an extension of the other discussion in that I'm looking for ways to make things at least a bit more civil in here.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

Oh I was mostly just joking. I'm not sure if it's a good idea or not; sounds fun but impractical and time-consuming. Curious to see what others think though.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

Ryan, I really don't think we need more civility.

I think people like to fight it out. i'm not opposed to civility. I'm not opposed to hostility.

It's freedom of expression. I like freedom. The mods who choose to participate in this forum set most of the policy. We base our decisions on their input. I'm very grateful that the there is such emotion behind the ideas generated here.

I like the fact that people feel free to disagree with us and call us stupid.

Maybe i'm wrong, but I don't see any real problems here. I think you just feel guilty because you killed yeti and now daryn wants to quit.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

Well... I do.

But that's separate from how I'm viewing a lot of the [censored] that can take place in here. My worry is it that it can drive people into not wanting to be mods.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

Ryan,

Being a mod requires a very thick skin. If a poster can't take the [censored] that gets thrown around in here, then they're perhaps not really cut out to be a mod in the first place.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

With any volunteer I think it would be more about not caring to deal with it than not being able to.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

i want nick b to weigh in here.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

[ QUOTE ]
i want nick b to weigh in here.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] mat

i think one of the biggest problems is that some people love to speak in broad platitudes ("nobody should ever get banned for this," "doing something like that is just plain stupid no matter what," etc) and just assume that whatever they like or think based on their own forum should apply to everyone. if people would simply look at what is good for the particular forum in question - in other words, 95% of the time, what that forum's users want - it would stop with a lot of the bickering.

basically any time i am making a post about what someone does in their own jurisdiction it is a SUGGESTION unless they did something in violation of the very few rules and precedents we have site-wide, and i try to phrase it as such.

if you create more specific site-wide rules, or create mod supervisors or meta-mods or floating mods or whatever, it will take some discretion away from the rest of us (something we would generally be against) but possibly resolve some of the ambiguity and turfishness that leads to infighting. i personally think that the strife arising from the former, and the subsequent power struggles / brown nosing / etc that would follow, would make things worse, not better, and more generally would detract from the unique and varied culture of the 2p2 sub-forums.

in general, i would rather have more rules from the admins than have another layer of people who have jurisdiction over me or what i do.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

[ QUOTE ]
ryan,

this sounds super stupid. the reason there's a difference between mods and admins. i think that having a system where when it comes down to it, the admins make the decisions is fine. the mods should present their cases, and should hopefully have their input weighed by the admins, but having the admins make the real decision is pretty important, imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

qfcitanul

You guys are admins and we are mods.

We run the day-to-day individual forum crap/deal with the micro-bs.

You are the managers: you manage us and make the big meta decisions based on our input, deal with the macro-bs and pay our salaries (2 free books/yr).

If you guys don't want to make the final decisions then you should put someone in charge in addition to you guys like citanul to make the decisions who will.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

[ QUOTE ]
With any volunteer I think it would be more about not caring to deal with it than not being able to.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure you've noticed the number of mods that hardly ever participate in discussions here, mostly strat mods. The tone is undoubtedly the reason for many of them. The tone in this forum is worse then any other forum. There's no sense of community or working together to get things done. There's no sense of purpose or no initiative to solve cross forum issues. A voting system isn't going to fix this. The Reds need to moderate the tone. If you don't want a hostile environment, then don't let people call each other cunts and bitches and assholes or endlessly troll each other. In the end, things aren't getting solved because a lot of mods can't stand each other. A lot of that has to do with what is said here. You don't solve problems with people you hate. You don't hate people who are respectful and civilized no matter how dumb you think their ideas are. If you want to solve problems, create an environment where consensus can be built.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

[ QUOTE ]
i want nick b to weigh in here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mat, I personally believe that the reason that the us american mods don't have votes, is because they just don't have them. I believe the US Mods should take after the south african and the iraq mods and everywhere such as, and the education should be brought over here to help the us mods.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

leader,

i'm pretty sure the reason strat mods don't post here has nothing to do with the tone. they just don't care, they figure the forum doesn't really concern them as there are generally v little controversial or tough mod decisions to make in strat forums.

also disagree that you can't hate just someone because you think they are dumb.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[

If you guys don't want to make the final decisions then you should put someone in charge in addition to you guys like citanul to make the decisions who will.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not talking about not wanting or being able to make decisions. I'm mostly referring to how we get there. Putting someone else in charge won't change how people tend to deal with each other in here. We don't really control that directly, nor should we. Even if we tried to restrict language and such it's still going to come out.

I had a further thought about my idea at lunch, and it may not work for a couple reasons besides sounding stupid. It could just end up creating a new layer of drama instead of helping anything really.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

[ QUOTE ]

It could just end up creating a new layer of drama instead of helping anything really.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do think this is the most likely end result.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

[ QUOTE ]
leader,

i'm pretty sure the reason strat mods don't post here has nothing to do with the tone. they just don't care, they figure the forum doesn't really concern them as there are generally v little controversial or tough mod decisions to make in strat forums.

also disagree that you can't hate just someone because you think they are dumb.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is right. A lot of these things just don't matter. I think conflict arises with the other topics mods because those forums are closely related.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

nick,

genius

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

[ QUOTE ]
leader,

i'm pretty sure the reason strat mods don't post here has nothing to do with the tone. they just don't care, they figure the forum doesn't really concern them as there are generally v little controversial or tough mod decisions to make in strat forums.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure this is true to an extent, maybe to a very large extent, but it seems to me that this forum would better serve 2+2 if it was, to a larger degree, focused on making things better (structurally) rather then just weather a poster should be banned or what kind of locations show/shouldn't be allowed. If this is true, then it seems vital to bring strat mods in, and to do this there needs to be an environment that is conducive to consensus.

[ QUOTE ]
also disagree that you can't hate just someone because you think they are dumb.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it was a generalization. I'm sure there are exceptions. You would have to admit that though that you tend to forgive much more in friendly people then otherwise.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

[ QUOTE ]
There's no sense of purpose or no initiative to solve cross forum issues. A voting system isn't going to fix this. The Reds need to moderate the tone. If you don't want a hostile environment, then don't let people call each other [censored] and bitches and [censored] or endlessly troll each other. In the end, things aren't getting solved because a lot of mods can't stand each other. A lot of that has to do with what is said here. You don't solve problems with people you hate. You don't hate people who are respectful and civilized no matter how dumb you think their ideas are. If you want to solve problems, create an environment where consensus can be built.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Leader on these statements. I think we should act more civil and treat each other with respect. We are all volunteers trying to make twoplustwo a better place. I have been in many volunteer situations and have never seen people 'at each others throat' like we experience here. Ofter we get bogged down with name calling and personal insults/vendettas. I think this also keeps a few of the mods from adding their viewpoints. Rather than face the prospect of being insulted they just 'clam up' and keep their opinions to themselves.

I think when major disagreements are occurring the admins could provide us with guidance on their vision for twoplustwo. I realize this can be difficult as the poker boom has caused us exponential growth and a very dynamic environment. I think at least for awhile admins could direct us on 'across forum issues' like avators, user names and locations. We could present those here and the admins could furnish their opinions. We could still ban obvious infractions like horse porn, profanity, etc. This would provide us with Ryan and Mat's insight on how things should be handled and 'where the gray areas are'.

We could also possibly have admins approve bans longer than 48 hours on established posters. An 'established poster' would have to be defined and could be something like account created more than one year and over 200 posts. This would also entice admins to look at some of the problematic posters and possibly ban them for good. Some of these posters are 'always pushing the limits to seek attention' and cause many of our problems. I realize these steps would take some time for Ryan and Mat but it would help us see their thought process on how the forums should be modded.

With the growth of these forums I think it is a very difficult situation. We have over 100 diverse moderators and really only two active admins. The forums have also expanded from 'poker strategy only' to many diverse forums. Mat and Ryan do a great job and I do not envy their position at all.

Thank you,

Jim Kuhn
Catfish4u
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ofter we get bogged down with name calling and personal insults/vendettas. I think this also keeps a few of the mods from adding their viewpoints. Rather than face the prospect of being insulted they just 'clam up' and keep their opinions to themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]
This describes me. I rarely give my opinion in here anymore for this reason.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i want nick b to weigh in here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mat, I personally believe that the reason that the us american mods don't have votes, is because they just don't have them. I believe the US Mods should take after the south african and the iraq mods and everywhere such as, and the education should be brought over here to help the us mods.

[/ QUOTE ]

lmao

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

[ QUOTE ]
The tone in this forum is worse then any other forum. There's no sense of community or working together to get things done. There's no sense of purpose or no initiative to solve cross forum issues.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a gross exaggeration. Plenty of threads in here provide examples of mods working together, asking questions, getting good responses, and taking swift effective action.

I'm surprised that you would make such a hyperbolic statement like this, Leader, and I'm surprised that Jim Kuhn agrees with it. Clearly Politics, Sports (at many times), BBV, and OOT have a worse tone than Mod Discussion, and there is most definitely a sense of community here. The fact that we disagree over some things isn't evidence of a lack of community. It's evidence of a lack of sheep-like groupthink.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

joker,

you're a [censored] moron if you can't see that this forum sucks [censored] balls, [censored]

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that we disagree over some things isn't evidence of a lack of community.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. The problem I see is though that there's disagreement in the most significant threads without discussion. Maybe I'm wrong in my perception, but it seems like it comes down to mods arguing not about the issue, but about each other.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

[ QUOTE ]
joker,

you're a [censored] moron if you can't see that this forum sucks [censored] balls, [censored]

[/ QUOTE ]

lol nice hand

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

wrt to strat mods:

Id say wrt to SSNL and uNL any issues we have are usually discussed via PM. In general we have a shared forum vision and hence usually just generally agree or will talk in private. We care about our forums and feel as if our system works very well.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

I don't think it is necessary to add another level of decision maker. That may potentially create more challenges that it solves problems.

We can probably go a long way by working harder on the tone of the posts where we disagree with each other--focusing on the facts instead of dragging up old bodies or mud-slinging. It's not like we aren't capable of reaching good decisions, but it seems that we get side tracked easily.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/91/24...f0f721fe35.jpg

OK, is anyone going to speak up about Daryn leaving OOT and being demodded, El Diablo no longer modding EDF, and anything else that is going on? This is like the weirdest week ever on 2+2 that I can remember. Nobody is talking and everything is happening.

Drama bombs are not necessarily, but at least a couple lines about major changes would be nice.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

joker,

Cool elephant. Our department had pizza for lunch. I ate 3 slices of pepperoni. It was delicious.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

Lesko,

Was it from a major chain or a local place? Big slices? Three is not much.

You know what is good that my sorry half-assed dieting self loves? Pizza dipped in ranch or garlic sauce. Like the kind that Papa John's gives. Oh man so good.

EDIT: BTW not sure if I should keep calling you Lesko since you changed your avatar.

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

tug,

Local chain that is a favorite of our office. Slices are probably 25% larger on average than Papa John's.

Lesko is fine. He is off trick-or-treating and should return by this weekend [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: idea about resolving disputes
 

Weird elephant Joker. I wonder how they made him look like that?

I had sushi yesterday for lunch. Yum. Might do pizza today. There's a new place I want to try out. Well, not new-new. It's an established place, but new to me.